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US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

intelligence.senate.gov

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Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#521

Post by coldtea »

coldtea wrote: post #329
user24 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, 59 degrees seems quite chilly if you've just been stripped naked and soaked with ice cold water. Note no mention is made of whether the detainees were dried or clothed first either.

@rayiner > Oh my god they were quite chilly And abducted, held without trial, tortured, waterboard, anal raped, threatened, beaten againast a wall, and other things besides. A lot of them while also being totally inoccent (and in any way, without trial). What exactly have you suffered besides a comfy middle class existance that gives you the moral superiority to laugh at that? Would you also laugh at jews in Dr. Meng…

>Keeping in mind that we disagree as to how many, if any, of the detainees were "totally innocent" (as opposed to procedurally innocent), are you really going to compare our treatment of terrorists to the Germans' treatment of jewish civilians?

Absolutely. Abduction, held without trial, dehumanizing conditions, torture, etc.

Does your outrage about the jewish civilians only begin at the point were they burned them too?

Second, there are three levels of evil here, even if you disagree about "how many were totally innocent".

1) Some of them being totally innocent without dispute (for example those that were even released as such - in one case I read about after 7 years (!), and others for which they admitted they knew it for the start but used them as leverage, etc).

2) Even for the guilty, there should be no inprisoment without due process and fair trial.

3) Even for proven guilty, there should be no torture.

I don't consider anyone who does not agree on (2) and (3), basic tennets of human rights in the civilized world, anything more progressed than a KKK member lynching blacks back in the day...

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#522

Post by clebio »

rayiner wrote: post #430
clebio wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it's 'keeping the window propped up' (over to where it was moved long ago). The long history isn't exclusive to the idea that these shows and movies are a form of propaganda, or desensitization.

Moved when? Name one generation that you think was less accepting of questionable conduct in warfare. The long history suggests that the shows and movies are a symptom of cultural attitudes, rather than a cause. For example, consider all the media in the 1980's portraying criminal procedural protections as "technicalities." I think it was in response to the fact that, after 1960, crime per capita tripled before incar…

We went to very different colleges, I guess.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#523

Post by arrrg »

rayiner wrote: post #470
cryoshon wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Torture is a cut and dry moral issue; inflicting pain on a person willfully for an extended period of time is not acceptable behavior, nor is this fact a matter of politics. The people/groups I listed in my original comment have placed themselves on the wrong side of this moral issue, and history will judge them harshly as such. Obama may have issued an executive order when he entered office, but attempting to block/…

Apparently 2/3 of Americans are on the wrong side of this "cut and dry moral issue." http://hotair.com/archives/2014/04/09/poll-68-of-americans-s...

That’s quite irrelevant.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#524

Post by EliRivers »

Arnor wrote: post #442
CWuestefeld wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. We can't just keep whining "come on, guys, you really ought to stop" to our leaders. This is happening in our names, and our hands are dirty. Stopping this is our own responsibility.

And how shall we proceed?

The first step is telling your representative(s) that you think torture is bad. They genuinely don't know if you approve of it or not, and they've got the CIA and associated lobby telling them how necessary it is and that if they try to stop it, they're hurting america and in fact they're basically terrorists themselves.

Start by phoning your representative's office. Today. Tomorrow. The day after that. Every day, ask for your representative's statement on CIA torture. Ask why they haven't condemned it more thoroughly; are they in favour of torture? What exactly are they going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again? Really? Just that? That's not enough. What else? Talk to your neighbours, friends, family, colleagues. Ask them to do the same. Send letters. Send eMails. Visit in person. Don't stop.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#525

Post by rurounijones »

tptacek wrote: post #414
spacefight wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. And the only one sitting in prison so far is former CIA operative John Kiriakou who blew the whistle on the torture program. Go figure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kiriakou

The Kiriakou story is not as straightforward as this thread makes it. You can go to FAS.ORG to see the actual case files. Kiriakou was charged with using numerous forms of classified information about foreign intelligence operations in order to promote a book, and, in doing so, outing a still-undercover foreign operative involved in the Zubaydah case. That operative had allegedly been under cover for over 20 years. I…

> However terribly Zubaydah was treated by the CIA, we should probably remain clear on the fact that he was believed by everyone involved, including Kiriakou, to have been an integral part of the Al Qaeda network.

Is that supposed to be a rationalization for his treatment?

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#526

Post by GordonS »

rjohnk wrote: post #280

I'm surprised no one has brought up Homeland's past two episodes. It's fiction to be sure, but I think the raw emotions can be seen in the episodes. I have issues with people here being armchair ethics police. Also, I have just skimmed the report, so may be in error, but is there any context to those tortured? If they did not share with the CIA when they asked nicely, why? Did the tortured gun down innocent civilians…

> If they did not share with the CIA when they asked nicely, why?

Maybe because they were innocent? Maybe because they just didn't know the answers? But let's brutally torture them for years anyway... just in case?

> Did the tortured gun down innocent civilians?

According to the report, some of the detainees, including a mentally disabled man, were known to be innocent themselves.

Presumably there isn't any real evidence that any of them have actually done anything. Otherwise they would surely be tried in a court, rather than being brutally tortured in secret camps for years on end, with no legal counsel or so much as a shred of humanity?

If I was tortured using the utterly disgusting methods in this report, I would quickly claim to have gunned down civilians, eaten babies, or indeed whatever else I though they wanted me to say...

Honestly, reading parts of this report left me feeling nauseated. I don't understand how anyone can even consider agreeing with what these sub-human monsters have done, regardless of context. That they will get away with this, and some even profit greatly from it, further sickens me.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#527

Post by tptacek »

rurounijones wrote: post #525
tptacek wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Kiriakou story is not as straightforward as this thread makes it. You can go to FAS.ORG to see the actual case files. Kiriakou was charged with using numerous forms of classified information about foreign intelligence operations in order to promote a book, and, in doing so, outing a still-undercover foreign operative involved in the Zubaydah case. That operative had allegedly been under cover for over 20 years. I…

> However terribly Zubaydah was treated by the CIA, we should probably remain clear on the fact that he was believed by everyone involved, including Kiriakou, to have been an integral part of the Al Qaeda network. Is that supposed to be a rationalization for his treatment?

No, that's a shitty thing to accuse someone of, and if you read my entire comment you can see I don't believe that.. What's at issue in this subthread is Kiriakou's culpability in exposing intelligence programs for his own personal benefit.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#528

Post by hawleyal »

Loughla wrote: post #278
icpmacdo wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST the third point, there is a second half to it that shows what he tried to do to him self after being put through that > Additional sessions of rectal feeding and hydration followed. In addition to his hunger strikes, Majid Klian engaged in acts of self-harm that included attempting to cut his wrist on two occasions, an attempt to chew into his arm at the inner elbow, an attempt to cut a vein in t…

This man literally tried to chew through his own body, to bleed out, to avoid having his food forcefully shoved up his ass, for no reason whatsoever. He further attempted to kill himself on several occasions to avoid this as well. That is the cold truth of that statement. This is fucking disgusting, and someone needs to be held accountable.

I would venture we all need to be held accountable. "This happened on our watch" and the like.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#529

Post by hawleyal »

cryoshon wrote: post #124

A few things: The Republicans have issued a rebuttal. I assume this means they support torture. I hope this dissuades some of their remaining voter base from continuing to support them. Clapper has issued a rebuttal, claiming that the report isn't neutral. I assume he also supports torture. Not sure that he has any credibility left after being caught on the record lying to congress, but whatever. The White House atte…

Strong persecution and us-versus-them phrasing going on here. This is our government, our representatives, the people we elected and allow to perform these actions. We as a whole may not be as directly culpable, but we certainly are not clean of conscience. It evokes thoughts of "this happened on our watch". Even for those not residing in the USA, there is responsibility.
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