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Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

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Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#231

Post by johnnybgoode »

chrischen wrote: post #224
johnnybgoode wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the government never becomes a single ruling class or entity that may significantly alter the status quo for better, but more horrifyingly, for worse. This has already happened to a greater degree than most people realize. "Separation of powers" has been a complete failure. Just take the present time as an example. All three branches are currently controlled by the same faction. > So ultimately in the US you defini…

> Separation of powers" has been a complete failure. I don't think this is true. You referring to the fact that the democrats have complete control is not good enough of an example of one faction controlling everything. The idea of separation of the government with three branches is not necessarily to have 3 branches controlled by different parties, but the idea of having three separate entities that do not report to…

Separation of powers in the US was designed by the same people who did not even want a party system. So taken as a whole, the system can be seen to have failed almost instantly.

> So in practice it may seem like an oligarchy

If we look at the actual functioning of government (by which I don't mean just the elected representatives), most officials and bureaucrats are not significantly affected by any one election. There is a de facto permanent government, and there are clear patterns in the selection and activity of these officials.

> freedom of speech and democracy

The problem is that freedom/individualism is at odds with democracy. Most Western democracies do not have freedom of speech, again for democratic reasons. The US is an exception here, probably because of the prominent placement and unambiguous language of the First Amendment and the acceptance of freedom of speech as an American tradition.

> The education system may be going the wrong way, but why is it because of democracy?

Because the education system is run and managed by the permanent govt. mentioned above. They admit to wanting increased schooling and increased control. (Universal govt. schooling was a democratic idea in the first place.) Notice they have also come up with "scientific" justifications for this.

> China on the other hand, has a governing style based on oligarchical manipulation of the population.

So does the US. You can verify this by, for example, looking at the typical state-mandated school curriculum.

> So in essence the Democratic method does not force the bad education system, while the Chinese method fundamentally will oppose freedom of education as it will eventually, if not already, conflict with the interests of the oligarchy.

Your description of China's method applies to the US as well. The democratic method does indeed force the bad education system; as I mentioned earlier, it is a democratic (small d) idea to have the government attempt to school everybody.

China...has a style of government that will definitely not allow the freedom of education you and I both love.

I agree, but again, this applies to the US as well.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#232

Post by johnnybgoode »

thismat wrote: post #230
johnnybgoode wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, the above doesn't fall under the: "You don't have an option avoiding legal credentialing" Technically it does, but I do agree that it is more open than many other careers. And yes, there are plenty of options still left. But some careers are completely shut off to you if you do not go through govt.-approved schools. That is the key.

What is your suggestion to replace that? As some careers demand a certain level of competency and skill (Doctors, Nurses, Civil Engineers, et cetera)? Are you saying the confidence we give doctors based on their years of studying and research just might be too much faith in the Government standard? Interesting question that brings up as well, how do we accurately gauge a persons skill in a profession like this if we…

> Are you saying the confidence we give doctors based on their years of studying and research just might be too much faith in the Government standard?

Yes, absolutely.

> What is your suggestion to replace that? As some careers demand a certain level of competency and skill (Doctors, Nurses, Civil Engineers, et cetera)?

It turns out someone else here has asked me the same question, please see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=645576 (my answer follows there).

> Maybe an apprentice/master system? Seems to work well for skill trades, why not for doctors?

Agreed. They do this already in a way, but if you combine it with a much more diverse set of options I think that would accomplish the goal.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#233

Post by DanielBMarkham »

johnnybgoode wrote: post #229
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument consists of -- my points don't matter? That's all you got? The neat thing about such arguments about systems is: time will tell. When China is at 250 years with the same system, we can compare notes! (grin). But throwing away each others' points is not exactly a good way to continue a conversation. I'm of the opinion that real changes occurred, in all areas of policy. You are not. No amount of my exp…

Please don't be offended. You did start by saying we were "way out there," and I don't think you meant in a good way. I think that does imply that you are "zoomed in" on a smaller range of policy options and that does make small changes look big. I'm not sure if you thought I was advocating everything that China does, or that I was somehow taking China's side in a US vs. China debate. That wouldn't be the case at all…

Not offended. Nothing to worry about.

You were having a conversation with a lot of hidden assumptions and definitions that were not clear to me -- to me, that's "out there". I was unable to gather anything useful from your stream, and that always interests me. It's a chance to either prove or disprove my own assumptions and definitions.

If you say things are not big, and I provide examples of where they are big, and then you throw away my examples, we're done. I can't well argue with myself, and unless you put forward a working definition of what "big" is we don't have anywhere to go.

I see the change in China as very incremental, done under duress, and done to the least amount possible in order to maintain control. Perhaps that's uncharitable of me but that's my current viewpoint. In the U.S., on the other hand, we seem willing and able to make change on a whim. We get tired of one set of philosophies and switch off to another every so often.

Now you can certainly argue that the underlying drivers of the U.S/, commercialism, haven't changed any, and that this lack of change means an underlying common theme in governance. But I think that begins to dilute the conversation so much as to make it meaningless -- and once again, you have me arguing with myself.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#234

Post by johnnybgoode »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #233
johnnybgoode wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't be offended. You did start by saying we were "way out there," and I don't think you meant in a good way. I think that does imply that you are "zoomed in" on a smaller range of policy options and that does make small changes look big. I'm not sure if you thought I was advocating everything that China does, or that I was somehow taking China's side in a US vs. China debate. That wouldn't be the case at all…

Not offended. Nothing to worry about. You were having a conversation with a lot of hidden assumptions and definitions that were not clear to me -- to me, that's "out there". I was unable to gather anything useful from your stream, and that always interests me. It's a chance to either prove or disprove my own assumptions and definitions. If you say things are not big, and I provide examples of where they are big, and…

It's true, my views are not mainstream, but I think even mainstream observers would disagree with you here. In the last 50 years China has seen the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the transition to a corporatist economy in the Deng era.

What was the last change in the US approaching this magnitude? Possibly the New Deal, but even that is quite a stretch. It does not really compare to going from the deadly Great Leap Forward (20-43 million dead, 53% poverty rate under Mao) to the current corporatism (around 6% poverty rate) in less than half a century.

That being said, I'm not sure if or why you're using flexibility in governance as a metric for good government. The government having the ability to change policies quickly is not necessarily a good thing all the time. It seems to me the actual policies themselves matter more.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#235

Post by DanielBMarkham »

johnnybgoode wrote: post #234
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not offended. Nothing to worry about. You were having a conversation with a lot of hidden assumptions and definitions that were not clear to me -- to me, that's "out there". I was unable to gather anything useful from your stream, and that always interests me. It's a chance to either prove or disprove my own assumptions and definitions. If you say things are not big, and I provide examples of where they are big, and…

It's true, my views are not mainstream, but I think even mainstream observers would disagree with you here. In the last 50 years China has seen the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the transition to a corporatist economy in the Deng era. What was the last change in the US approaching this magnitude? Possibly the New Deal, but even that is quite a stretch. It does not really compare to going from the d…

It seems to me the actual policies themselves matter more.

Not at all.

Look at it this way: what do you want, to be able to get the answer exactly right the first time, or to have a bunch of iterations optimizing each time?

Societies are complex chaotic systems. There probably is no "right" answer. Instead, it's important for there to be a dance between policy and marketplace. The dance is much more important than the policy itself. [insert long economics discussion here]

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#236

Post by chrischen »

johnnybgoode wrote: post #234
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not offended. Nothing to worry about. You were having a conversation with a lot of hidden assumptions and definitions that were not clear to me -- to me, that's "out there". I was unable to gather anything useful from your stream, and that always interests me. It's a chance to either prove or disprove my own assumptions and definitions. If you say things are not big, and I provide examples of where they are big, and…

It's true, my views are not mainstream, but I think even mainstream observers would disagree with you here. In the last 50 years China has seen the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the transition to a corporatist economy in the Deng era. What was the last change in the US approaching this magnitude? Possibly the New Deal, but even that is quite a stretch. It does not really compare to going from the d…

Actually I'm going to have to agree with Johnny here. Not only is the US government designed to be ineffective by giving more factions power, it certainly has manifested it's intentions in reality. Despite democrats controlling congress and the presidency, has Obama been able to pass his progressive healthcare reforms? Anything much? No, and this shows that the US is the one more capable of incremental reform, if anyhing because opposing factions have equal power to counter each other. China, on the other hand is one party, one entity. They want something done, nobody will stop them. The can suggest seedig rain and the next thing you know the skies are clear. Most likely none of the over 1 billion people are consulted. No opposition, no resistance. Things get done faster, but here's more risk since there's less diversity of opinion.

I think you are disregarding johnny's points and assuming he's a brick wall. Take a minute and make sure that you are not doing to Johnny what you think he is doing to you.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#237

Post by philwelch »

defen wrote: post #210
philwelch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine how many millions of lives would be freer and richer if Deng had acted in the same way as Gorbechev, Yeltsin, or even Egon Krenz. Had Louis XVI acted in the same way as Deng, continental Europe may still be under the heel of absolute monarchism today, with all the stupid pointless wars that entails. The French Revolution was a step forward for humanity, no matter how messy it was.

> The French Revolution was a step forward for humanity, no matter how messy it was. I don't think you have a full understanding of just how messy the French Revolution was. Are you familiar with the war in the Vendee? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_the_Vendee How about the Committee of Public Safety? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Public_Safety

Are you familiar with the spread of liberal democracy across Europe and the world?

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#238

Post by johnnybgoode »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #235
johnnybgoode wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true, my views are not mainstream, but I think even mainstream observers would disagree with you here. In the last 50 years China has seen the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the transition to a corporatist economy in the Deng era. What was the last change in the US approaching this magnitude? Possibly the New Deal, but even that is quite a stretch. It does not really compare to going from the d…

It seems to me the actual policies themselves matter more. Not at all. Look at it this way: what do you want, to be able to get the answer exactly right the first time, or to have a bunch of iterations optimizing each time? Societies are complex chaotic systems. There probably is no "right" answer. Instead, it's important for there to be a dance between policy and marketplace. The dance is much more important than th…

To clarify, I don't mean the actual policies just at any one time.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#239

Post by defen »

philwelch wrote: post #237
defen wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The French Revolution was a step forward for humanity, no matter how messy it was. I don't think you have a full understanding of just how messy the French Revolution was. Are you familiar with the war in the Vendee? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_the_Vendee How about the Committee of Public Safety? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Public_Safety

Are you familiar with the spread of liberal democracy across Europe and the world?

I think this is one of those things where neither of us is going to change his opinion based on what some guy wrote on the internet, but if you haven't read it yet, I recommend Edmund Burke's "Reflections on the Revolution in France". Burke was a British Whig MP who supported the American Revolution, but opposed the French. It's an interesting contemporary account of the early days of the French Revolution. You can read it here: http://www.constitution.org/eb/rev_fran.htm

I'd love to read some pro-Revolution writings if you can recommend any.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#240

Post by hop »

jibiki wrote: post #138
hop wrote: post #132

Warren Buffett, Steve Jobs, Henry Ford, Carnegie, Phil Knight, Steve Fosset... The founders - Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Washington - the world owes them a debt of gratitude. Ernest Shackleton, Pat Tillman, Chuck Darwin, (politics aside)Barack Obama, Samuel Clemens, Einstein, Micheal Jordan, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, Emerson, Jon Stuart, Ron Paul, MacGyver, Elon Musk, Hugh Hefner, Tiger Woods, Feynman, Socrates, L…

> Funny, I think all of these people are athiest/agnostic, goes to show you... Why do you think that? Dylan famously converted to Christianity, BHO is a long time churchgoer, and Ron Paul is supposedly a creationist Christian. I don't really know about the others (obviously Einstein had a lot to say about god and dice and so on, but that hardly makes him a believer...)

Oh yes, overlooked Ron Paul, Obama too, as religious people. Jury is out on Einstein, hes has made comments both ways. I'm probably wrong about a few others too.

And for some reason I wrote Steve Fossett when I meant Richard Branson.

Long day. Thanks.

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