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US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

intelligence.senate.gov

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Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#431

Post by trhway »

__d wrote: post #348
kilroy123 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My little sister just got into with me on facebook about how it is perfectly ok to torture our enemies. That's just the last straw for me. I would never have someone in my life, family or not, who would think raping people is acceptable. This is even worse. Even our enemies shouldn't be raped/tortured.

But killing them is ok?

>But killing them is ok?

the human race so far narrowed it down to 2 possibilities - judicial proceedings or war following the rules of Geneva Conventions. Every other form of violence is a crime, with torture and killings being the crimes against humanity, prosecutable by any government and without statute of limitations.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#432

Post by wtbob »

cryoshon wrote: post #124

A few things: The Republicans have issued a rebuttal. I assume this means they support torture. I hope this dissuades some of their remaining voter base from continuing to support them. Clapper has issued a rebuttal, claiming that the report isn't neutral. I assume he also supports torture. Not sure that he has any credibility left after being caught on the record lying to congress, but whatever. The White House atte…

> The Republicans have issued a rebuttal. I assume this means they support torture.

> Clapper has issued a rebuttal, claiming that the report isn't neutral. I assume he also supports torture.

If I write, 'cryoshon eats babies,' and Jimbo replies, 'no he doesn't; he eats eggs, and besides he was starving,' then that doesn't mean that Jimbo supports baby-eating: it means that he doesn't believe that eating eggs is eating babies.

There is a minority report which rebuts this one, and the CIA itself have issued their own rebuttal. Now, those could be non-rebuttals entirely of the form, 'doesn't matter, it worked' or they could be rebuttals of the form, 'the worst stuff you mention never happened; the rest of it is unpleasant but legal, and effective.'

They could also be true, or false—as could this report.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#433

Post by gcb0 »

lotharbot wrote: post #96

It seems to me like there are four key findings here: (1) the CIA did some truly horrific stuff to detainees -- wallings, waterboardings, sleep deprivation, threatening their families, etc. (Specific quotes are in rdtsc's comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8723834 ). (2) the CIA systematically lied about and hid information about what they were doing from other parts of the government -- from the Senate…

and even when it is public, there is still not repercussion to the people that made the bad decision.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#434

Post by gcb0 »

DanBC wrote: post #423
gcb0 wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your elected officials are only now learning about what happened. nothing there was authorized by who you allowed into power. The common man is even more detached from the powers that be than previously assumed (which was already low).

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing" We knew - we knew - that detainees were being tortured. We didn't know how many; nor for how long; nor the exact methods; but we did know that it was happening.

true. i stand corrected.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#435

Post by gcb0 »

olifante wrote: post #340
[deleted] wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

1. The crimes of others do not excuse your own. 2. There is abundant proof that the US engaged in a deliberate, not occasional, policy of torture, whitewashed as "enhanced interrogation techniques". 3. There is so far no proof that other western nations have recently had a policy of deliberate torture, except for the sad cases where the US creatively outsourced some of its torture needs to Poland and perhaps a few ot…

if any of those were true, there would be no war.

in reality, everything is excused when it is against the enemy. but even then, the problem here is that 1) most things were done just out of sadism. for no real benefit. US tax payers pretty much paid for a BSDM dungeon for some sick CIA operatives. 2) several cases caught lawful citizens and great pains were taken to make it look like nothing happened.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#436

Post by trhway »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #102
sliverstorm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of these things are clearly off the deep end. But some of them, especially threats, seem like pretty basic/standard interrogation... There are many techniques, but it seems like we have forgotten it is fundamentally manipulative and abusive. I mean, we are surprised to find that threats are used? What?

I wouldn't say that any of these techniques are "basic/standard", and I used to work in the field. You can get plenty of information out of someone without laying a finger on them. In my opinion the question is the extent to which it's OK to play with people's psychology through isolation and misinformation, while still giving them 3 hots and a cot. The important thing to note here is that you can still damage people…

>Should they get the same rights and protections as suspects in the US judicial system?

Geneva Convention states clearly - either POW status or suspect in the judicial system. There is no 3rd option.

> This is the conversation we should be having in my opinion.

there is no conversation to have. Only charges (of crimes against humanity which torture is) to bring in.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#437

Post by dragonwriter »

trhway wrote: post #436
leroy_masochist wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that any of these techniques are "basic/standard", and I used to work in the field. You can get plenty of information out of someone without laying a finger on them. In my opinion the question is the extent to which it's OK to play with people's psychology through isolation and misinformation, while still giving them 3 hots and a cot. The important thing to note here is that you can still damage people…

>Should they get the same rights and protections as suspects in the US judicial system? Geneva Convention states clearly - either POW status or suspect in the judicial system. There is no 3rd option. > This is the conversation we should be having in my opinion. there is no conversation to have. Only charges (of crimes against humanity which torture is) to bring in.

> Geneva Convention states clearly - either POW status or suspect in the judicial system. There is no 3rd option.

None of the Geneva Conventions actually say this. OTOH, torture is subject to a universal prohibition under international law independently of the status of the tortured person, whether a protected person under the any of the Geneva Conventions, a regular criminal suspect in a domestic court system, or any other status that may or may not exist.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#438

Post by pluma »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #189
rdtsc wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point, and we might even be in worse position if action is not taken. If there is lack of outrage, it will send a message up the chain that "this is not that bad, nobody really minded this much, let's use harsher techniques next time".

So here's an ethical question- If the report leads to no action, where is the good in releasing it? Real risk for real people has been created. It's not theoretical. Actual innocent people have been placed in danger. If there's no good coming from the report, was it worth placing those people in danger?

Yes, you're absolutely right. This report is making me want to kill people in cold blood. It's probably better to keep it secret so nobody finds out about it until it's too late.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#440

Post by kossTKR »

zghst wrote: post #403
Synaesthesia wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, torture doesn't work, but it's not about that. Violence simply isn't morally legitimate ever, whether it's aggression or as a response to violence (possibly even greater violence). Whether it's torture, murder, whatever, it doesn't matter. Doing it in the name of war or national security doesn't make a moral difference. The ticking time bomb thing is just an excuse for this behaviour.

I disagree about violence. The animal kingdom is inherently violent. Is it socially inappropriate to use violence in most parts of Western civilization? Yes. But in other places around the world (and in some cultures and groups in the West), violent behavior is the norm. It's brutal, it has lasting effects, it's demoralizing to the victim, however it is what we are all born with. Does that mean violence is 100% unacc…

So you want to skew the conversation from a discussion the legitimacy of torture, to "is violence bad in it's biological essence".

The reason people come to stark conclusions like "all violence is bad" is because they experienced real war, or real violence.

Read post war literature.

I would rather dismiss violence completely, even though it would be slightly intellectually dishonest, rather than indulge in quasi philosophical conversations on violence in it's biological essence (when the context is war or torture).

To me, it's obscene, a mockery of the millions that has lost their lives to war, and a self masturbatory intellectual privilege of the few wealthy enough to live far from the unimaginable horrors of real war.

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