US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program • Hacker News Board

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#291

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:34 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #278

icpmacdo wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST the third point, there is a second half to it that shows what he tried to do to him self after being put through that > Additional sessions of rectal feeding and hydration followed. In addition to his hunger strikes, Majid Klian engaged in acts of self-harm that included attempting to cut his wrist on two occasions, an attempt to chew into his arm at the inner elbow, an attempt to cut a vein in t…

This man literally tried to chew through his own body, to bleed out, to avoid having his food forcefully shoved up his ass, for no reason whatsoever. He further attempted to kill himself on several occasions to avoid this as well. That is the cold truth of that statement. This is fucking disgusting, and someone needs to be held accountable.

[deleted]

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#292

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:35 PM UTC

cryoshon wrote: post #270

anigbrowl wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The White House attempted to keep this report from coming out. That's inaccurate. Kerry asked for a delay in its release; as Secretary of State, responsible for US embassies around the world, it's his job to draw attention to the risk factors. All reports I've read prior to the release said that both the President and Vice President were strongly in favor of publication. Ultimately the choice to classify or declassif…

When you say that the President and VP were in favor of publication, that is definitely not consistent with what we've seen from Obama. Remember when Obama blocked the release of additional Gitmo evidence because he claimed it would result in Americans being hurt? I assume the exact same logic was used here to prevent this report from coming out. I assume Kerry's plea for a delay was a result of the CIA pressuring hi…

> When you say that the President and VP were in favor of publication, that is definitely not consistent with what we've seen from Obama.

We've seen Obama declassify this exact report, without which it could not be published. I'm not sure how much more consistency there can be on this point.

> Remember when Obama blocked the release of additional Gitmo evidence because he claimed it would result in Americans being hurt? I assume the exact same logic was used here to prevent this report from coming out.

I conclude (rather than assume) that it wasn't, because if it that logic was used by Obama, then this report wouldn't have been declassified.

> I assume Kerry's plea for a delay was a result of the CIA pressuring him to protect their assets which are embedded with embassies worldwide.

I don't see any reason to assume that. Its not entirely implausible, but the way that it paints US ambassadors as dupes of the CIA and undermines US diplomatic credibility is also a plausible reason for Kerry to seek to delay it, particularly if there are ongoing negotiations to which the particular issues on which it most damages that credibility may be relevant, and there are numerous other plausible reasons why Kerry might have sought the delay.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#293

Post by sigzero » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:35 PM UTC

scott_karana wrote: post #128

pessimist wrote: post #51

Dianne Feinstein deserves enormous credit. Fox News and Republicans are bashing her and by extension her party as traitorous as we speak. The argument that this report should be kept in secret because it endangers Americans' lives is abominable. As an American living abroad, I'm happy to see this released. Still, I wonder about some of the side-effects of this. Instead of arresting and interrogating terrorists we kil…

It's really disappointing that she does support the NSA's extrajudicial activities, though, to the point of calling Snowden a traitor. C'est la vie :P

This does nothing to help my view of her.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#294

Post by reitanqild » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:37 PM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #276

reitanqild wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on, be serious: Most of us would much rather prefer to be shot dead or blown up in a split second than being even slightly tortured and locked up indefinitely. If not it must be because we don't know what we are talking about.

I am extremely doubtful about your assertion that most people would rather be shot dead than locked up indefinitely. You're also making assumptions that people die instantly on the battlefield and in drone attacks. That's not the case. They can (and do) die in slow, lingering, painful ways in such cases.

I see. And I admit writing the wrong thing.

My point is being locked up indefinitely and tortured again and again. Waiting for pain is also painful unless you are very mentally strong.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#295

Post by ssmoot » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:38 PM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #189

rdtsc wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point, and we might even be in worse position if action is not taken. If there is lack of outrage, it will send a message up the chain that "this is not that bad, nobody really minded this much, let's use harsher techniques next time".

So here's an ethical question- If the report leads to no action, where is the good in releasing it? Real risk for real people has been created. It's not theoretical. Actual innocent people have been placed in danger. If there's no good coming from the report, was it worth placing those people in danger?

> Real risk for real people has been created. It's not theoretical.

Risk of what?

> Actual innocent people have been placed in danger.

Who?

I'm not attempting to argue the point. I haven't read the report. It just seems a strong statement to make that innocent bystanders (with no connection to torture) have been put at risk (of what?).

I'm curious how legitimate this claim is since to be honest it reads a bit like FUD (that's just how it comes off; but I'm just looking for a rationale).

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#296

Post by cyorir » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:39 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #181

cyorir wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You bring up Hiroshima as an example. I think that in many ways this becomes the old Moral Absolutism versus Moral Relativism problem. You can have a moral absolutist who says, "Harming another human is wrong, therefore we will not torture under any case." (A different absolutist might be more utilitarian in arguing for torture of one to save many, but you get the point- an absolutist has a position and a rigid inter…

You (like so many others, sadly) assume torture is actually effective, and that objections to its use rest solely on immorality. I object to torture on moral grounds. I also object to it on practical grounds. It doesn't work. Since both of those objections point in the same direction, the solution is completely clear.

Certainly, I accept your objection on practical grounds, but cannot quite accept the objection on moral grounds.

If something doesn't work, then don't do it. Hiroshima was an extreme example of that. By August the political establishment in Japan was split, with consensus moving rapidly to peace out of the war because by mid 1945 the industrial centers of Osaka and Tokyo were ruined by fire bombings. It just so happens that at the same time the government is moving to surrender, we use two bombs to vaporize more people.

"We need to use these bombs to end the war sooner." A fine argument to the intentionalist, regardless of outcome, but the consequentialist will have a problem with it because the atomic bombings did not lead to an early conclusion of the war, the fire bombings did.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#297

Post by patrickg_zill » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:41 PM UTC

Two thoughts:

1. The CIA hacked the Senate's computers and performed other surveillance on them. Since they were caught, it is likely that this did not shall we say, endear the CIA to the Senate.

2. Unless and until the people in the CIA that did these things, and the bosses who approved these things, face jail time, loss of government pensions, etc. I predict that nothing will change.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#298

Post by wmeredith » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:42 PM UTC

ad_hominem wrote: post #110

mikeyouse wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all members of the committee deserve your appreciation.. > The 6,000-page report was researched and written by Democratic staff members of the Senate Intelligence Committee between 2009 and 2013 after committee Republicans chose not to participate. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/us/politics/q-and-a-about-...

Feinstein has chaired the Senate Intelligence Committee since 2009. Her job over the past 5 years in this role was supposed to be oversight of these intelligence agencies. Fact is until this release she has been a staunch defender of the existing intelligence programs and the status quo among NSA, White House, and CIA. She's exactly the type of person you do not want chairing this committee. Unfortunately when Edward…

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#299

Post by sd8f9iu » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:43 PM UTC

cryoshon wrote: post #264

sd8f9iu wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"The Republicans have issued a rebuttal. I assume this means they support torture." >"Clapper has issued a rebuttal, claiming that the report isn't neutral. I assume he also supports torture." >"The White House attempted to keep this report from coming out...I assume that the White House supports torture..." Politics is a dirty, complex game. If you treat every news event as black and white like this, you will form…

Torture is a cut and dry moral issue; inflicting pain on a person willfully for an extended period of time is not acceptable behavior, nor is this fact a matter of politics. The people/groups I listed in my original comment have placed themselves on the wrong side of this moral issue, and history will judge them harshly as such. Obama may have issued an executive order when he entered office, but attempting to block/…

Yes, torture is a pretty cut and dry moral issue. That does not mean the people/groups you listed are "for torture" based on the small sample of reactions you listed. I would not describe the Obama administration as being "for torture" just for going against the report (can you source that by the way? I can't find it). Maybe they genuinely thought unrest in its aftermath would pose a security risk? I don't think this is really what they thought, hence, the report was released. Likewise, perhaps the Republican party views the report as inaccurate, but not that torture is justified in general (given past members' support for the programs, I doubt this too, but still).

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#300

Post by reitanqild » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:43 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #277

reitanqild wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on, be serious: Most of us would much rather prefer to be shot dead or blown up in a split second than being even slightly tortured and locked up indefinitely. If not it must be because we don't know what we are talking about.

Throwing water on someone and leaving them in a 59-degree room is worse than shooting them dead? Keeping someone awake until they hallucinate is worse than shooting them dead? Really? I can imagine torture that's worse than death. I don't think any of the things revealed in the article qualify. Which is precisely what I'm getting at. If you're not a pacifist and you think it's okay to kill people in war, I think you…

Simulated drowning again and again over months and years and never being released (meaning it can happen again anytime) comes across as way worse than being shot dead to many of us, yes.

Also, just being locked up with nothing to do can be painful in itself.