US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program • Hacker News Board

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#271

Post by bashinator » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:21 PM UTC

pkinsky wrote: post #135

rdtsc wrote: post #25

> Interrogation techniques such as slaps and "wallings" (slamming detainees against a wall) were used in combination, frequently concurrent with sleep deprivation and nudity. Records do not support CIA representations that the CIA initially used an "an open, non-threatening approach," or that interrogations began with the "least coercive technique possible" and escalated to more coercive techniques only as necessary.…

> Anyone suggesting debating if rape is acceptable should be slapped on the head and considered an idiot Meanwhile, jokes about prison rape are socially acceptable & the US government refuses to do much of anything to stop it.

The second half of your statement is untrue. Google "prison rape reduction act" - this has resulted in a significant improvement as reported both through scientific surveys and anecdotal accounts.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#272

Post by shit_parade » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:23 PM UTC

eslaught wrote: post #200

I think we should be a little more amazed that this report is available at all---an through internal channels at that. While we're all bashing the CIA for what they've done (and are right to do so), we should also appreciate that this is also at some level an instance of government working "properly": one branch of government audited another branch, found that there had been misconduct, and was able to publish a repo…

a steam valve to relieve pressure keeps the great death machine running smoothly.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#273

Post by lotharbot » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:23 PM UTC

gknoy wrote: post #97

lotharbot wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a clearance you're expected to follow proper protocols in accessing classified information. Reading something via a leak is not the proper protocol. Think of it as analogous to being given a "gift" that you know is stolen. Even though you didn't steal it, you know it actually belongs to someone else, so you shouldn't accept it.

If it's leaked, you're not allowed to read it. If it's re-classified as Unclassified, you're allowed to read it, as it's no longer classified material.

thanks, that's an important distinction.

To better state my initial point: if you have a clearance, you can only read classified material you're supposed to have access to for your job. If it's leaked but still classified, you can't read it.

If it's declassified, then you can read it.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#274

Post by jeangenie » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:24 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #72

Loughla wrote: post #10

Why do they insist on saying 'enhanced interrogation technique' instead of torture? Even when it obviously means torture: "Another senior CIA officer stated that COBALT was itself an enhanced interrogation technique." When talking about a physical place. That is so blatant word replacement that I find it hard to take it seriously.

> Why do they insist on saying 'enhanced interrogation technique' instead of torture? "Enhanced interrogation technique" is an uncontroversial, accurate factual description. "Torture" is a conclusion of law applied to the facts that, while there is overwhelming reason to accept that the conclusion is valid for the program as a whole, and many of the specific instances in particular, does not necessarily apply to all…

> uncontroversial, accurate factual description.

Are you so obsessed with minutiae of definitions that you are unable to see that both terms describe reprehensible acts performed by people against other people?

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#275

Post by sigzero » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:26 PM UTC

rqebmm wrote: post #212

mikeash wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You (like so many others, sadly) assume torture is actually effective, and that objections to its use rest solely on immorality. I object to torture on moral grounds. I also object to it on practical grounds. It doesn't work. Since both of those objections point in the same direction, the solution is completely clear.

This has also been stated by many interrogation professionals, so it's not like it's just uninformed civilians running around saying "torture doesn't work, so don't use it"

I hate torture. One of the problems is that many interrogation professionals also say it works.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#276

Post by waterlesscloud » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:26 PM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #268

rayiner wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying we shouldn't engage in torture because it's "bad"? It's okay to blow these same people up in the battlefield, but god forbid we throw water on them and put them in a slightly cold room?

Oh come on, be serious: Most of us would much rather prefer to be shot dead or blown up in a split second than being even slightly tortured and locked up indefinitely. If not it must be because we don't know what we are talking about.

I am extremely doubtful about your assertion that most people would rather be shot dead than locked up indefinitely.

You're also making assumptions that people die instantly on the battlefield and in drone attacks. That's not the case. They can (and do) die in slow, lingering, painful ways in such cases.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#277

Post by rayiner » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:26 PM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #268

rayiner wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying we shouldn't engage in torture because it's "bad"? It's okay to blow these same people up in the battlefield, but god forbid we throw water on them and put them in a slightly cold room?

Oh come on, be serious: Most of us would much rather prefer to be shot dead or blown up in a split second than being even slightly tortured and locked up indefinitely. If not it must be because we don't know what we are talking about.

Throwing water on someone and leaving them in a 59-degree room is worse than shooting them dead? Keeping someone awake until they hallucinate is worse than shooting them dead? Really?

I can imagine torture that's worse than death. I don't think any of the things revealed in the article qualify. Which is precisely what I'm getting at. If you're not a pacifist and you think it's okay to kill people in war, I think you have to go to pretty tortured lengths to say that these enhanced interrogation techniques are unjustifiable in light of that. If you're a pacifist who doesn't think that killing is justifiable in the first place, that's a totally different thing.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#278

Post by Loughla » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:26 PM UTC

icpmacdo wrote: post #134

user24 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The list goes on. It sure does. > At DETENTION SITE COBALT, detainees were often held down, naked, on a tarp on the floor, with the tarp pulled up around them to form a makeshift tub, while cold or refrigerated water was poured on them. Others were hosed down repeatedly while they were shackled naked, in the standing sleep deprivation position. These same detainees were subsequently placed in rooms with temperatures…

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST the third point, there is a second half to it that shows what he tried to do to him self after being put through that > Additional sessions of rectal feeding and hydration followed. In addition to his hunger strikes, Majid Klian engaged in acts of self-harm that included attempting to cut his wrist on two occasions, an attempt to chew into his arm at the inner elbow, an attempt to cut a vein in t…

This man literally tried to chew through his own body, to bleed out, to avoid having his food forcefully shoved up his ass, for no reason whatsoever. He further attempted to kill himself on several occasions to avoid this as well.

That is the cold truth of that statement. This is fucking disgusting, and someone needs to be held accountable.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#279

Post by EthanHeilman » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:27 PM UTC

user24 wrote: post #87

rdtsc wrote: post #25

> Interrogation techniques such as slaps and "wallings" (slamming detainees against a wall) were used in combination, frequently concurrent with sleep deprivation and nudity. Records do not support CIA representations that the CIA initially used an "an open, non-threatening approach," or that interrogations began with the "least coercive technique possible" and escalated to more coercive techniques only as necessary.…

>The list goes on. It sure does. > At DETENTION SITE COBALT, detainees were often held down, naked, on a tarp on the floor, with the tarp pulled up around them to form a makeshift tub, while cold or refrigerated water was poured on them. Others were hosed down repeatedly while they were shackled naked, in the standing sleep deprivation position. These same detainees were subsequently placed in rooms with temperatures…

In one case, CIA abducted a mentally handicapped man who they knew to be innocent[0], for the sole purpose of recording and sending video tapes of him crying and in distress to his family members to use "as leverage"[1][2].

[0]: https://twitter.com/Ethan_Heilman/status/542386688329125888/...

[1]: https://twitter.com/Ethan_Heilman/status/542385586313502720/...

[2]: https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1376...

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#280

Post by rjohnk » Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 7:28 PM UTC

I'm surprised no one has brought up Homeland's past two episodes. It's fiction to be sure, but I think the raw emotions can be seen in the episodes. I have issues with people here being armchair ethics police.

Also, I have just skimmed the report, so may be in error, but is there any context to those tortured? If they did not share with the CIA when they asked nicely, why? Did the tortured gun down innocent civilians? Are they known to have plans for a large attack? What would you do in that situation?

I refuse to make the jump to "America the Gestapo" I refuse to make black and white "torture is wrong, always" OR "they got what's coming to them".

There is evil. There is good. We get into theological and moral implications if I go any further so I'll stop there lest I get downvoted because I believe in some old white guy with a beard.