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Wireless in Gaza: the young entrepreneurs beating the blockades

theguardian.com

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Re: Wireless in Gaza: the young entrepreneurs beating the blockades

#51

Post by JupiterMoon »

JupiterMoon wrote: post #47
ikonst wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mixing up Gaza and the West Bank. What Israel (and Egypt) are doing is - 1) blockading Gaza, 2) entering armed conflicts with the Hamas with high human casualties and vast damage to infrastructure Israel is not occupying Gaza. All settlements in the Gaza strip were dismantled in 2005: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza The Israeli military absolutely does not enter Gaza frivolously as…

The UN (and everyone except the USA) considers Gaza de facto occupied.

Not sure why a fact would be be downvoted?

Re: Wireless in Gaza: the young entrepreneurs beating the blockades

#52

Post by Smokey28 »

JupiterMoon wrote: post #49
frozenport wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this change your opinion?

Didn't Israel bomb the power station in Gaza?

Which is now up and running a shocking 46 weeks ahead of schedule. Don't believe everything you read.

Re: Wireless in Gaza: the young entrepreneurs beating the blockades

#53

Post by ecommercematt »

bjourne wrote: post #45
ecommercematt wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without discussing politics, people with widely varying perspectives on Gaza understand that the present reality of life in Gaza poses extra challenges for those engaged in the inherently challenging pursuit of starting a startup. To understand why "talking about politics" is harmful on this site, let's review this excerpt from your post: "if you are not allowed to mention Israel's complete blockade of the Gaza Strip…

Connecting what I wrote with anti-semitism, that's just.. no I wont respond to that. Afaik, the blockade maintained by Egypt and Israel is almost "complete. " As in the amount of imports/exports are only a few percent of the pre-blockade levels. Computers and batteries are among the blockaded goods so the laptop the girl in the photo is using, is almost certainly smuggled through using one of the tunnels. Now waxing…

I didn't "connect what you wrote with anti-semitism." I asked if you can understand how something you said could make some people uneasy because it resembles a narrative frequently used to malign them. You "just.." "won't respond to that," which is a shame.

While it might be "pretty useful to know," about the blockade, you weren't helpfully stating a fact that someone might not know in order to be "useful." Given the blockade's prominent role in the article (the word "blockade" is in the title and it occurs 3 other times throughout the article), you weren't informing anybody; you were editorializing. Why didn't you mention Egypt's role in the blockade in your comment, singling out Israel as the lone offender?

If someone were relying on your comment to learn about the situation as you seem to be suggesting was your intent, they would be under-informed about the major actors in the situation and perhaps misinformed about the nature and severity of the blockade. Your use of the term "complete" to describe the blockade ranges from subjective to incorrect, depending on one's perspective.

Is the conversation we're having ideal for HN? I don't think so, but I think it is the inevitable consequence of "talking about politics." Talking about politics is quite different than merely informing people of facts requisite for understanding a given situation, despite your attempts to conflate the two.

Re: Wireless in Gaza: the young entrepreneurs beating the blockades

#54

Post by JupiterMoon »

Smokey28 wrote: post #52
JupiterMoon wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Israel bomb the power station in Gaza?

Which is now up and running a shocking 46 weeks ahead of schedule. Don't believe everything you read.

Not sure I follow you logic here. Because something got repaired then it is OK that it was smashed in the first place? Can you clarify?

Re: Wireless in Gaza: the young entrepreneurs beating the blockades

#55

Post by bjourne »

ecommercematt wrote: post #53
bjourne wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Connecting what I wrote with anti-semitism, that's just.. no I wont respond to that. Afaik, the blockade maintained by Egypt and Israel is almost "complete. " As in the amount of imports/exports are only a few percent of the pre-blockade levels. Computers and batteries are among the blockaded goods so the laptop the girl in the photo is using, is almost certainly smuggled through using one of the tunnels. Now waxing…

I didn't "connect what you wrote with anti-semitism." I asked if you can understand how something you said could make some people uneasy because it resembles a narrative frequently used to malign them. You "just.." "won't respond to that," which is a shame. While it might be "pretty useful to know," about the blockade, you weren't helpfully stating a fact that someone might not know in order to be "useful." Given the…

The conversation is not great because you are talking about me and guessing my motives, not about the subject. Afaik, everything from computers, cell phones, livestock, canned fruit and of course people are blockaded. Maybe that doesn't make the blockade "complete" but how would you characterize it then?

Re: Wireless in Gaza: the young entrepreneurs beating the blockades

#56

Post by blisterpeanuts »

idiotclock wrote: post #39
ikonst wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mixing up Gaza and the West Bank. What Israel (and Egypt) are doing is - 1) blockading Gaza, 2) entering armed conflicts with the Hamas with high human casualties and vast damage to infrastructure Israel is not occupying Gaza. All settlements in the Gaza strip were dismantled in 2005: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza The Israeli military absolutely does not enter Gaza frivolously as…

Gaza and the West Bank are one entity, according to the Oslo Accords of 1993 Chompsky writes: "The policies are quite clear. Their roots go back to the 1967 war and they have been pursued with particular dedication since the Oslo Accords of September 1993. The Accords determined that Gaza and the West Bank are an indivisible territorial entity. Israel and the U.S. moved at once to separate them, which means that any…

>> Chompsky writes: ...

I love the variation on his name. Sort of like an all-devouring linguist.

Re: Wireless in Gaza: the young entrepreneurs beating the blockades

#58

Post by JupiterMoon »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #57
JupiterMoon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why a fact would be be downvoted?

Maybe because it's not a fact?

Virtually every country in the world and in particular the UN considers that as Israel controls the borders to Gaza it is still de facto occupied. This is a fact. I'm not sure what you fail to understand here?

EDIT Less than a minute with google provided this. http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2012/01/27/un-we-still-con...

It also turned up a load of bluster. But that doesn't change the status in international law.

Re: Wireless in Gaza: the young entrepreneurs beating the blockades

#59

Post by ecommercematt »

bjourne wrote: post #55
ecommercematt wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't "connect what you wrote with anti-semitism." I asked if you can understand how something you said could make some people uneasy because it resembles a narrative frequently used to malign them. You "just.." "won't respond to that," which is a shame. While it might be "pretty useful to know," about the blockade, you weren't helpfully stating a fact that someone might not know in order to be "useful." Given the…

The conversation is not great because you are talking about me and guessing my motives, not about the subject. Afaik, everything from computers, cell phones, livestock, canned fruit and of course people are blockaded. Maybe that doesn't make the blockade "complete" but how would you characterize it then?

You haven't done me the courtesy of answering my direct questions, which is a shame. Nonetheless, I'll answer yours. The term blockade itself without a modifier seems like the best term for it without going into details (you modified it twice in less than accurate ways: 1) labeling it as Israel's without mention Egypt's role in it and 2) calling it complete).

The restrictions on shipments of goods into and out of Gaza vary pretty regularly, which is the main reason I found that term to be an instance of editorializing rather than informing.

Since what can cross into and out of Gaza changes so frequently, is it only sometimes a complete blockade? When massive shipments are allowed in, would the blockade have exited its status as a "complete" blockade? Then what level of restriction needs to be met before it resumes its status as a "complete" blockade?

If you aren't aware of the varying policies, exceptions, and pretty regular massive shipments of goods allowed during the blockade, you should be able to find plenty of instances with minimal Googling.

Note that I'm not calling it a "mild blockade" or a "partial blockade" or anything like that and I might even call it a "restrictive blockade" or even "very restrictive blockade." I don't seek to minimize the blockade, just to accurately represent it.

Re: Wireless in Gaza: the young entrepreneurs beating the blockades

#60

Post by blisterpeanuts »

JupiterMoon wrote: post #58
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because it's not a fact?

Virtually every country in the world and in particular the UN considers that as Israel controls the borders to Gaza it is still de facto occupied. This is a fact. I'm not sure what you fail to understand here? EDIT Less than a minute with google provided this. http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2012/01/27/un-we-still-con... It also turned up a load of bluster. But that doesn't change the status in international law.

You said: "everyone except the USA" considers Gaza occupied.

That is not a fact; it's a statement made by you, based on what some member of the U.N. Human Rights Commission said.

The UNHRC does not legislate international law, and arguably they do not interpret it very intelligently either; they spend an inordinate amount of their time focusing on Israel's supposed human rights abuses, almost to the exclusion of all the other problems in the world, e.g. China, Pakistan, Turkey, Syria, Africa, S. America, and Russia.

As to your statement that Israel controls the borders to Gaza, that is simply not true. Israel and Egypt control the borders, which is a significantly different situation. I don't notice the U.N. claiming that Egypt "occupies" Gaza, yet by your definition and, apparently, the UNHRC's, they do.

The fact is, Israel supplies Gaza with electricity and data services, and they allow about 16,000 tons a week of goods into Gaza. They are rightfully afraid of deadly arms being smuggled into Gaza that would be used against Israelis, so they inspect all cargo from land and sea.

None of this precludes entrepreneurial activity in Gaza, however, as this woman demonstrates. It would be nice if there were peaceful relations and an open border, but that is up to the Gaza people to figure out, when they are tired of war and would rather negotiate some kind of permanent deal with the Israelis. But to get to that point, they have to put down their guns.

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