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On Interviewing as a Junior Dev

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Re: On Interviewing as a Junior Dev

#11

Post by bshimmin »

peteretep wrote: post #9

That's a pretty impressive starting salary range for a junior. a) You must have interviewed exceptionally well, and be in practice "not really" a junior (which would imply Ada are doing an incredible job, and is freakin' awesome), or be bringing to bear some other skills and/or b) Salary range where you are is broken You said the range you got offered was $75-$95, which in Great British Pounds is £47-£60,000, and I'v…

And it seems like Amazon was willing to offer a $20K signing bonus, so add another £13K to that. A junior developer in London would probably feel they'd done very well to get half of that.

Re: On Interviewing as a Junior Dev

#12

Post by tomlock »

butwhy wrote: post #7
_RPM wrote: post #2

> I did a code challenge that involved ranking soccer teams, and while going over the code a developer at the company asked me if I needed the rules of the game explained to me. While it's a good thing to make sure the candidate understands what the problem is, companies need to be aware that these things carry extra cultural baggage and asking a female candidate if they understand a basic sports rule (or any other m…

So.. the company asks a candidate if they understand the game, and just because the author of this post is female, she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female. This is ludicrous. Sounds like a feminist.

Whether you like it or not people make assumptions about other people based on their gender. Companies that are sensitive to that fact are less likely to pose code challenges that align with a common assumption about gender, which aligns with the gender of the majority of developers. They are also less likely to ask questions that also reflect that assumption. For this developer, this code challenge was a red flag.

Re: On Interviewing as a Junior Dev

#13

Post by butwhy »

tomlock wrote: post #12
butwhy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So.. the company asks a candidate if they understand the game, and just because the author of this post is female, she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female. This is ludicrous. Sounds like a feminist.

Whether you like it or not people make assumptions about other people based on their gender. Companies that are sensitive to that fact are less likely to pose code challenges that align with a common assumption about gender, which aligns with the gender of the majority of developers. They are also less likely to ask questions that also reflect that assumption. For this developer, this code challenge was a red flag.

There is absolutely no basis for that claim in this particular case. I'd expect them to ask all candidates if they understand the scenario, regardless of sex. But guess what? We have absolutely no idea because there is no data on it. As such, it is totally unjustified to call an employer "belittling and sexist" purely because they asked a single candidate if they understood something related to their code challenge.

Re: On Interviewing as a Junior Dev

#14

Post by [deleted] »

_RPM wrote: post #2

> I did a code challenge that involved ranking soccer teams, and while going over the code a developer at the company asked me if I needed the rules of the game explained to me. While it's a good thing to make sure the candidate understands what the problem is, companies need to be aware that these things carry extra cultural baggage and asking a female candidate if they understand a basic sports rule (or any other m…

[deleted]

Re: On Interviewing as a Junior Dev

#15

Post by rurounijones »

peteretep wrote: post #9

That's a pretty impressive starting salary range for a junior. a) You must have interviewed exceptionally well, and be in practice "not really" a junior (which would imply Ada are doing an incredible job, and is freakin' awesome), or be bringing to bear some other skills and/or b) Salary range where you are is broken You said the range you got offered was $75-$95, which in Great British Pounds is £47-£60,000, and I'v…

Looking at the resume I have trouble considering her a "Junior" dev, seems much more experienced than that.

Re: On Interviewing as a Junior Dev

#16

Post by rurounijones »

butwhy wrote: post #7
_RPM wrote: post #2

> I did a code challenge that involved ranking soccer teams, and while going over the code a developer at the company asked me if I needed the rules of the game explained to me. While it's a good thing to make sure the candidate understands what the problem is, companies need to be aware that these things carry extra cultural baggage and asking a female candidate if they understand a basic sports rule (or any other m…

So.. the company asks a candidate if they understand the game, and just because the author of this post is female, she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female. This is ludicrous. Sounds like a feminist.

> she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female

Not sure what article you were reading but all she doesn't say anything of the sort. She simply points out that companies need to realize some questions may come with extra cultural baggage which could be misinterpreted.

Re: On Interviewing as a Junior Dev

#17

Post by butwhy »

rurounijones wrote: post #16
butwhy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So.. the company asks a candidate if they understand the game, and just because the author of this post is female, she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female. This is ludicrous. Sounds like a feminist.

> she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female Not sure what article you were reading but all she doesn't say anything of the sort. She simply points out that companies need to realize some questions may come with extra cultural baggage which could be misinterpreted.

It does. The questioner asked her if she understood the game before she started her code challenge. She proceeded to extrapolate from this by calling such questioning "belittling and sexist", implying that they're only asking HER because she is female. So yes, it is wild speculation on her behalf because she has no idea if the employer also asked guys the same thing.

Re: On Interviewing as a Junior Dev

#18

Post by rurounijones »

butwhy wrote: post #17
rurounijones wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female Not sure what article you were reading but all she doesn't say anything of the sort. She simply points out that companies need to realize some questions may come with extra cultural baggage which could be misinterpreted.

It does. The questioner asked her if she understood the game before she started her code challenge. She proceeded to extrapolate from this by calling such questioning "belittling and sexist", implying that they're only asking HER because she is female. So yes, it is wild speculation on her behalf because she has no idea if the employer also asked guys the same thing.

> While it's a good thing to make sure the candidate understands what the problem is, companies need to be aware that these things carry extra cultural baggage and asking a female candidate if they understand a basic sports rule (or any other male dominated theme) comes across as belittling and sexist.

The full thing.

> she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female

Your bit.

At no point does she say they she thinks they are only asking her because she is female, in fact I read that as she knows that they ask everyone and not only women but the general context of the question and cultural baggage associated with the context can come across as belittling and sexist even when that is not the intent.

Re: On Interviewing as a Junior Dev

#19

Post by Perdition »

tomlock wrote: post #6
_RPM wrote: post #2

> I did a code challenge that involved ranking soccer teams, and while going over the code a developer at the company asked me if I needed the rules of the game explained to me. While it's a good thing to make sure the candidate understands what the problem is, companies need to be aware that these things carry extra cultural baggage and asking a female candidate if they understand a basic sports rule (or any other m…

Unfortunately, our culture generally views sport as a male domain. While you and I are probably aware that there's nothing intrinsically "male" about sport, it can feel a little weird for someone to treat you as if your understanding is aligned with the gendered assumption. Anyone, if they don't understand the rules of the game, could still ask what they are. Would you feel weird if someone assumed you knew the rules…

>Not using a different challenge

Like what?

Even something like maths can be claimed to be "viewed generally as a male domain". And once you start accounting for ethnicity and social background I think you would find it incredibly difficult to come up with something that had no possibly offensive cultural baggage.

Actually, maybe the challenge could be to design a challenge that was neutral.

P.S. Considering soccer's limited popularity in the US I doubt most candidates would know the rules.

Re: On Interviewing as a Junior Dev

#20

Post by DanBC »

tomlock wrote: post #6
_RPM wrote: post #2

> I did a code challenge that involved ranking soccer teams, and while going over the code a developer at the company asked me if I needed the rules of the game explained to me. While it's a good thing to make sure the candidate understands what the problem is, companies need to be aware that these things carry extra cultural baggage and asking a female candidate if they understand a basic sports rule (or any other m…

Unfortunately, our culture generally views sport as a male domain. While you and I are probably aware that there's nothing intrinsically "male" about sport, it can feel a little weird for someone to treat you as if your understanding is aligned with the gendered assumption. Anyone, if they don't understand the rules of the game, could still ask what they are. Would you feel weird if someone assumed you knew the rules…

Or the could the company frame the help-giving to make it clear that this is offered to everyone?
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