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I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

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Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#111

Post by kellyfj »

I've been in a hiring manager role (tech lead / manager) for almost 14 years and this has always been true: Lots of knowledge out there - but the ability to write a basic function cleanly and correctly is rare.

There are tons of people with credentials and good looking resumes but my experience is that less than 1 in 5 of them can code a Fibonacci function let alone FizzBuzz. I don't care if it's iterative or recursive as long as it's right.

I think the core issue is the CS courses emphasize knowledge WAY TOO MUCH over experience of writing tons of code on a team. In addition, resumes have WAY too much noise compared to signal - that's why people's networks (and tools like GitHub) are so important.

I've also been in organizations where teams hired people I passed on (they did multiple interviews in our org) and those that did not pass the Fibonacci test not only bombed in their organizations but also hired MORE bad programmers and they all got RIFfed. Those that pass the Fibonacci test do pretty darn good on my teams.

Amazing how a simple programming test can be such a solid predictor . . .

I also screen for other things - knowledge, good communication skills and if they have a good sense of their own abilities. It also blows my mind how super confident kids walk in expecting to nail an interview - but again can't code a simple function to save their lives.

But Fibonacci continues to blow my mind - so simple and yet so hard. Just add two variables in a loop . . .

BTW I have found in general women are generally better programmers than men as a percentage of those interviewed.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#112

Post by greenyoda »

nmjohn wrote: post #70
zacoder wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every company has it's own "books" they want you to read. At Facebook you work on a social network, at Google on a search engine. If you apply to 10 jobs, you need to read 10 different books. "But you can't be arsed to make that small investment in yourself before applying for a new job?" Bills don't pay themselves. Why can't you, the employer, be arsed to make that small investment in your new employee? You're the o…

If you're needing to read 10 different books you are doing a very poor job of picking companies to apply to. If you're a python developer, it wouldn't make sense for you to apply for a ruby job, a nodejs job, a C++ job, and a java job - thus requiring 4 books. Instead, you should apply to 4 companies looking for python developers, then you need one book at most, unless you've already master the language in which case…

"Coming from the companies perspective, if I have 10 applicants for a job, the first round of people to get cut will be those who don't have experience with our tech stack. If I have other applicants who already are familiar with it, it wouldn't make sense to hire someone who would need to learn a new language first."

This approach to hiring sacrifices long-term productivity gains for short-term productivity gains. A really smart and experienced developer who doesn't know your tech stack may be less productive for the first few weeks, but after that time they could become far more productive than your "Python developers" by leveraging their superior thinking skills, debugging skills, CS skills, communication skills, etc. But if you never give them a chance, you'll never know what you're missing.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#113

Post by nmjohn »

greenyoda wrote: post #112
nmjohn wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're needing to read 10 different books you are doing a very poor job of picking companies to apply to. If you're a python developer, it wouldn't make sense for you to apply for a ruby job, a nodejs job, a C++ job, and a java job - thus requiring 4 books. Instead, you should apply to 4 companies looking for python developers, then you need one book at most, unless you've already master the language in which case…

"Coming from the companies perspective, if I have 10 applicants for a job, the first round of people to get cut will be those who don't have experience with our tech stack. If I have other applicants who already are familiar with it, it wouldn't make sense to hire someone who would need to learn a new language first." This approach to hiring sacrifices long-term productivity gains for short-term productivity gains. A…

> A really smart and experienced developer who doesn't know your tech stack

I really question whether that exists or not. The kind of developer you are referring to by and large knows how good they are and has no problem finding a job with a tech stack they are already familiar with. Additionally, this kind of person wouldn't move to a new language without trying it out first and likely comparing its features to a handful of other languages before making a calculated decision to switch. And by this point in time they probably have enough experience with the language to be able to make it through an interview because most interview questions tend to be more algorithmic in nature than language specific.

I completely agree that the kind of person you speak of in the long term could be a much better hire, but in the real world I don't think it's applicable. Let's say this kind of person is 1/100 applications where the applicant doesn't have experience on the desired tech stack. For most companies it is not even remotely feasible to interview 100 people with little to no chance of getting the job to find the diamond in the rough.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#114

Post by edoceo »

MichaelCrawford wrote: post #17
ryaniscool wrote: post #10

Here is an alternate point of view. I recently went through the process of hiring a programmer. I probably interviewed 30 candidates. All of them had the required knowledge and experience listed on their CV's. Guess how many could write a simple program in the language of their choice? Exactly 3. Yes, there are many people with the right credentials. In my own personal experience, many of these people can't do the wo…

For the specific reason that resumes are often, if not actually outright faked, at least "enhanced", I've been contemplating starting a business in which I would perform resume screening for folks like you, for a fee. I don't really know how to structure it yet. I don't want to be a recruiter or headhunter. What I would like to do is to offer folks such as yourself, who already have resumes, my opinion as to the qual…

I have a tool that does this. I use it to filter all candidates. Saves loads of time

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#115

Post by S4M »

mabbo wrote: post #11

Not all tech workers are equal. My company does not care what language you know, or technology you use- we want people who are smart, capable of working with any technology. And we want the very best of those people, without lowering the quality bar for the sake of having people in seats. We will let people go while we also are hiring for open positions on the same team if we realize the person isn't s good fit after…

Out of curiosity, what is your company?

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#116

Post by MichaelCrawford »

dalke wrote: post #110
MichaelCrawford wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what "Discovery" and "Deposition" are for. In the United States - specifically the US, I don't know about other countries - the Constitutional right to not incriminate oneself only applies to criminal procedures, not to civil ones. So all I would have to do is put Zuckerberg - or whoever I think may have made the decision not to hire me - under oath in a deposition, then ask them directly whether the didn't hi…

You are making things up and don't understand how the legal system works. The immediate response from Facebook will be that you have no grounds for your lawsuit: you have no evidence of age or disability discrimination, only conjecture, they decline to hire many applicants, and there are legitimate reasons for not going forward with hiring you. Such as they found a better candidate. Even under Reid v. Google, a stray…

Actually I think it's _you_ who don't understand how the legal system works.

When one is the respondent in a civil lawsuit, one has to depose under oath, and one must supply what is requested in discovery.

Yes, the respondent can ask that a judge quash a discovery subpeona, with the usual argument being that it's "just a fishing expedition". However, given Zuckerberg's adamant insistence that young people are smarter, and that no one at all should hire anyone over the age of thirty, it would not be hard to convince a judge to force Facebook to hand over all of its emails.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#117

Post by MichaelCrawford »

edoceo wrote: post #114
MichaelCrawford wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the specific reason that resumes are often, if not actually outright faked, at least "enhanced", I've been contemplating starting a business in which I would perform resume screening for folks like you, for a fee. I don't really know how to structure it yet. I don't want to be a recruiter or headhunter. What I would like to do is to offer folks such as yourself, who already have resumes, my opinion as to the qual…

I have a tool that does this. I use it to filter all candidates. Saves loads of time

All the headhunters, and many software companies have resume retrieval databases. One can query for keywords such as "windows device driver" then get all the resumes that have that keyword.

But the programs must not be very effective, or perhaps those who use them don't know how to use them correctly.

I myself have written some Mac and embedded device drivers, and I've written some Windows GUI applications, but hardly a day goes by without a solicitation for me to apply to a windows device driver job.

I expect it's interesting work, but I don't have a clue as to how to write windows device drivers, and never claimed to.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#118

Post by MichaelCrawford »

kellyfj wrote: post #111

I've been in a hiring manager role (tech lead / manager) for almost 14 years and this has always been true: Lots of knowledge out there - but the ability to write a basic function cleanly and correctly is rare. There are tons of people with credentials and good looking resumes but my experience is that less than 1 in 5 of them can code a Fibonacci function let alone FizzBuzz. I don't care if it's iterative or recursi…

My father felt very strongly that women were better naval officers than were men.

He also felt very strongly that the soviets were far better than his fellow americans. He regarded most military personnel as total slackers.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#119

Post by dalke »

MichaelCrawford wrote: post #116
dalke wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making things up and don't understand how the legal system works. The immediate response from Facebook will be that you have no grounds for your lawsuit: you have no evidence of age or disability discrimination, only conjecture, they decline to hire many applicants, and there are legitimate reasons for not going forward with hiring you. Such as they found a better candidate. Even under Reid v. Google, a stray…

Actually I think it's _you_ who don't understand how the legal system works. When one is the respondent in a civil lawsuit, one has to depose under oath, and one must supply what is requested in discovery. Yes, the respondent can ask that a judge quash a discovery subpeona, with the usual argument being that it's "just a fishing expedition". However, given Zuckerberg's adamant insistence that young people are smarter…

Has Zuckerberg said anything about the matter in the last 5 years?

If not, then you have no standing, and you have no legal power to compel FB to do anything for you. Legal precedent is against you, and I quoted a California Supreme Court case which went into the details for both California and US anti-discrimination law. Anti-discrimination laws give you 180 calendar days from the day the discrimination took place (or more depending on state or local laws, but not more than a year). You cannot sue over one even that happened that long ago.

If so, then show me an example of how Zuckerberg continues to insist on that belief. I have found nothing beyond 2007. And kindly point out in the EEOC guidelines where there's a violation of the law.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#120

Post by MichaelCrawford »

bobosha wrote: post #103

One thing that continues to amaze me about the people claiming there is no tech worker shortage, their typical argument - "if only the tech industry paid enough...." That is a self-contradictory proposition if ever there is one. What is that this supposed talented programmer wannabes do, if they are in a position not to take a 100K+ salary? More importantly, if indeed there is such talent and you know how to run a co…

All the headhunters tell me I should be asking for $65.00 per hour.
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