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I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

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Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#21
>>> when a new technology is introduced, one is _immediately_ required to know about it before getting a job where that technology will be used.

Well Said. I too am in a similar position you have explained. I have a Computer Science college degree (graduated in November) and I have been applying to junior/graduate level jobs that have inflated expectations of what a regular graduate should know (especially technologies).

All these claims of tech worker shortages recruiters talk about is hard to believe. I think there is a communication breakdown with companies and education centers breakdowns when it comes recruitment.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#22

Here is an alternate point of view. I recently went through the process of hiring a programmer. I probably interviewed 30 candidates. All of them had the required knowledge and experience listed on their CV's. Guess how many could write a simple program in the language of their choice? Exactly 3. Yes, there are many people with the right credentials. In my own personal experience, many of these people can't do the wo…

Could you provide an example of your definition of a simple program and the resources they had to write it?

Hm, I'd like to know the answer to that question too.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#23

Here is an alternate point of view. I recently went through the process of hiring a programmer. I probably interviewed 30 candidates. All of them had the required knowledge and experience listed on their CV's. Guess how many could write a simple program in the language of their choice? Exactly 3. Yes, there are many people with the right credentials. In my own personal experience, many of these people can't do the wo…

Could you provide an example of your definition of a simple program and the resources they had to write it?

Not parent, but I've sat though way too many interviews where the candidate failed the "FizzBuzz" test, either through super convoluted code that barely works or with complete failure to produce the expected results.

And that is while sitting at a desktop computer, full internet access and no one eyeing behind them.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#24
> At one time, a college degree and a demonstrable grasp of computing technology was all one needed.

Yep, and that turned out to be a fucking disaster. So we learned how to filter for programming skills, and the results were utterly depressing. The vast majority of those "engineers who are unable to find work" couldn't code their way out of a paper bag.

That applies to the majority of applicants unless we start filtering for actual proven experience. Trying to find someone inexperienced who's worth investing in training is a truly depressing exercise most smaller companies really can't afford.

Is it really that much to ask that an unemployed engineer who wants a job coding in language X makes a bit of an effort to learn the language by themselves? Employers really don't expect 'paid' experience in something that's brand new, but what they do expect is self-motivation. If you're only willing to learn X when your boss tells you, you're either going to be a pain to work with or you're covering up for your lack of skill.

You only learn a language really well over years. That's your paid on-the-job-training. All most hiring managers look for is some sign of skill and motivation.

Not to mention the reality that the "cult of new", as we see it on HN and in the start-up scene really fucks over most non-startup employers. Most developers don't stick with any company for more than two or three years because they want green field projects in the latest sexy language and framework, not maintain "boring legacy code" (we're talking code no more than two years old...) in a stack that's just been declared harmful, crap or whatever by the HN hipster engineering in-crowd.

So you train someone, invest time in someone, allow them to learn from costly mistakes on real world projects, and just when they are at the peek of their knowledge and productivity, they fuck off again. Regardless of how well they get paid and treated.

We bitch a lot about employers not investing in training, but the flip side is that we have actively contributed to a culture of zero loyalty.

As far as I can tell, there is a real scarcity of actually talented engineers, but employees and employers are stuck in some destructive loop that just makes the problem a thousand times worse.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#25
"I know lots of engineers who are unable to find work."

I don't. Probably your definition of "engineer" is different from mine.

"Another problem is that us engineers are expected to have real-world, paid experience in whatever technology the hiring company uses"

Generalization and obviously not true. I have a company, I don't care about paid experience, in fact we hired lots of people from open source projects, or directly from University with no experience at all.

"At one time, a college degree and a demonstrable grasp of computing technology was all one needed. Companies were happy to train. No longer."

During the dotcom bubble anyone that could click a button was hired. But it was a bubble.

The better demonstration of grasping computing technology is actually having done something with a computer.

When computers filled a room it was impossible for people to code on their own. Now you could find people with college degree AND experience writing software for others or for their own.

"yet one cannot get a job writing Swift code, unless one already has PAID Swift experience on one's resume."

This is your belief not reality.

"It's not enough to just read a book."

Of course. Programming is not about reading books. The better programmer is not the one who reads the most books.

In fact, I consider books obsolete. Everybody in my company has free Lynda accounts.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#26
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe the exploded salaries of the bay area take away any financial space an employer might have for on-the-job training? It's not like employers are keen on training anywhere else in the US either. American business executives have become culturally short-sighted and the unwillingness to train is part of that.

> It's not like employers are keen on training anywhere else in the US either. Although I do not live in the US, I gather that like many countries I have lived in is the view is that training is no longer such a large responsibility of the employer and is rather costly. However in my travels and work in Asia, there is a concept of bonding in many countries where an employee is offered a job and training and in return…

This doesn't sound like the Asia that I live in.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#27
Why is it that there either has to be a shortage or abundance or tech workers? I think as of now the stream of Tech workers is adequately filling seats.

Tech is one of those fields that ends up a lot like dating. You know there's people out there that could re-write your whole system overnight--the "rockstars". Because of this I get the feeling that people are turning down tons of job applications just because they feel the applicants aren't "rockstar-y" enough.

I think the experience mentioned here also holds true. Companies want people that can get the ball rolling, but also underestimate how much training can help. At my current company, I'm probably at a training, that is beneficial to myself, at least once a week. I know I'm an outlier, but tying this all together, I think hiring managers are to the point where they're expecting too much from applicants, while undershooting the ability of even the mediocre applicants.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#29

I'm afraid there's a shortage of good programmers, with proper education in computer science, understanding of how the OS and programs interact, knowing how to use at least one programming language proficiently, fluent in algorithms and data structures - i mean people who know their tools and know what they're doing. Instead we've got lots of excited, half-educated but enthusiastic ctrl-c/ctrl-v specialists, doing wh…

There's a wide spectrum between copy+paste no-hopers and people with a PhD from MIT who know Knuth and SICP backwards.

I would rather employ a self-taught developer with some experience and pragmatism born out of real-world experience than I would someone with impeccable academic credentials.

Forgive me if I sound touchy but I'm self-taught, my knowledge of algorithms is extremely patchy - but I think I'm a competent developer in the domains to which I apply myself.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#30

>>> when a new technology is introduced, one is _immediately_ required to know about it before getting a job where that technology will be used. Well Said. I too am in a similar position you have explained. I have a Computer Science college degree (graduated in November) and I have been applying to junior/graduate level jobs that have inflated expectations of what a regular graduate should know (especially technologi…

Try looking at it from an employer perspective. The fact that you have a CS degree tells me absolutely nothing about your engineering talent.

So hiring you on that basis alone would be gamble, and the odds for that gamble are hysterically bad. They have better odds taking a year's junior developer salary straight to the casino.

The number of people claiming to be able to do the job is a multitude of those actually able to do the job.

If you are actually "in a similar position", it should take you less than two months to get out of that position. Teach yourself a stack that is in demand, build a project and put it out there (Github, App store, whatever) and if you show any talent and skill the odds are you'll be hired within a month.

Just waving your CS degree around isn't going to make anything happen.

Fuck it, you've just graduated in November, you have no proven skills and you're already whining about not getting hired?

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