Live data from Hacker News

Show HN: Code Words, a quarterly publication about programming

codewords.hackerschool.com

11–20 of 78 posts

Re: Show HN: Code Words, a quarterly publication about programming

#11
post #5

(commenting on one of the articles) Wow. Just stumbled upon the following quote and read the corresponding article. > Programming language comparisons usually focus on the brevity and expressiveness of the language. If the solution to a programming problem has fewer lines and is “easier to understand” or “clearer” in one language than another, that is an argument for using the former over the latter. This comparison…

In truth tooling fixes a lot of his issues with OOP.

E.g. "you will have to check the entire code base for any methods which called the setter."

Sounds difficult... But it's really less than a second away as OOP IDEs have a "find references" functionality. Likewise if you want to know who is setting a bad value you just set a data breakpoint and the debugger will break when the bad value is set.

More fundamentally I don't agree with his assertion that figuring out where the bug is is the most time consuming part of debugging. The most time consuming part by a very large margin is setting up the environment to properly replicate the defect, followed by retesting all surrounding code/features that could be impacted by the fix, followed by determining a fix, followed by documenting/management overhead.

The average time for me to find the location of a bug in our codebase is around an hour. Yet I only fix on average a bug a day and it's not because I head to the pub after finding it :p.

Re: Show HN: Code Words, a quarterly publication about programming

#12
post #5

(commenting on one of the articles) Wow. Just stumbled upon the following quote and read the corresponding article. > Programming language comparisons usually focus on the brevity and expressiveness of the language. If the solution to a programming problem has fewer lines and is “easier to understand” or “clearer” in one language than another, that is an argument for using the former over the latter. This comparison…

> - https://codewords.hackerschool.com/issues/one/why-are-object... . > In all seriousness, this is one of the best articles I've ever read. I couldn't agree more with the author. I'm not sure if you are being serious (you say you are, so Po's law), but this is a bad article written by someone who I guess must be a novice who thinks he knows something now but will look back on this 5 years later and cringe; examples.…

> a bad article written by someone who I guess must be a novice who thinks he knows something now but will look back on this 5 years later and cringe

The article's author appears to be Robert Lefkowitz. If it is, then the author transitioned from nuclear physics to programming in the 1970s, has been a speaker at PyCon, currently seems to be writing software in Haskell, Ruby, and Java, gave several talks at OSCon in 2013, and is currently a CTO while also working with corporations to open proprietary code ... among other things.

I won't further belabor the point, but what you just said (and how you said it) is one of my least favorite aspects of HN.

Re: Show HN: Code Words, a quarterly publication about programming

#14
post #5

(commenting on one of the articles) Wow. Just stumbled upon the following quote and read the corresponding article. > Programming language comparisons usually focus on the brevity and expressiveness of the language. If the solution to a programming problem has fewer lines and is “easier to understand” or “clearer” in one language than another, that is an argument for using the former over the latter. This comparison…

> - https://codewords.hackerschool.com/issues/one/why-are-object... . > In all seriousness, this is one of the best articles I've ever read. I couldn't agree more with the author. I'm not sure if you are being serious (you say you are, so Po's law), but this is a bad article written by someone who I guess must be a novice who thinks he knows something now but will look back on this 5 years later and cringe; examples.…

Well it certainly wasn't written by someone with experience working on legacy COBOL systems, I can tell you that much!

Re: Show HN: Code Words, a quarterly publication about programming

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - https://codewords.hackerschool.com/issues/one/why-are-object... . > In all seriousness, this is one of the best articles I've ever read. I couldn't agree more with the author. I'm not sure if you are being serious (you say you are, so Po's law), but this is a bad article written by someone who I guess must be a novice who thinks he knows something now but will look back on this 5 years later and cringe; examples.…

> a bad article written by someone who I guess must be a novice who thinks he knows something now but will look back on this 5 years later and cringe The article's author appears to be Robert Lefkowitz. If it is, then the author transitioned from nuclear physics to programming in the 1970s, has been a speaker at PyCon, currently seems to be writing software in Haskell, Ruby, and Java, gave several talks at OSCon in 2…

I've seen a lot of bad talks coming out of pycon.

Re: Show HN: Code Words, a quarterly publication about programming

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - https://codewords.hackerschool.com/issues/one/why-are-object... . > In all seriousness, this is one of the best articles I've ever read. I couldn't agree more with the author. I'm not sure if you are being serious (you say you are, so Po's law), but this is a bad article written by someone who I guess must be a novice who thinks he knows something now but will look back on this 5 years later and cringe; examples.…

> a bad article written by someone who I guess must be a novice who thinks he knows something now but will look back on this 5 years later and cringe The article's author appears to be Robert Lefkowitz. If it is, then the author transitioned from nuclear physics to programming in the 1970s, has been a speaker at PyCon, currently seems to be writing software in Haskell, Ruby, and Java, gave several talks at OSCon in 2…

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Code Words, a quarterly publication about programming

#17
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a bad article written by someone who I guess must be a novice who thinks he knows something now but will look back on this 5 years later and cringe The article's author appears to be Robert Lefkowitz. If it is, then the author transitioned from nuclear physics to programming in the 1970s, has been a speaker at PyCon, currently seems to be writing software in Haskell, Ruby, and Java, gave several talks at OSCon in 2…

[deleted]

I agree with you, I read that article and was giving it the stinkeye the whole time.

Re: Show HN: Code Words, a quarterly publication about programming

#18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a bad article written by someone who I guess must be a novice who thinks he knows something now but will look back on this 5 years later and cringe The article's author appears to be Robert Lefkowitz. If it is, then the author transitioned from nuclear physics to programming in the 1970s, has been a speaker at PyCon, currently seems to be writing software in Haskell, Ruby, and Java, gave several talks at OSCon in 2…

[deleted]

You don't get to be a good writer via ad hominem attacks either. Having had several interactions with the author, I'd say he has a knack for putting forth controversial theses like the one in the article. I've disagreed with lots of them--but I've always gotten smarter thinking about why I've disagreed with them (and have often been left with the suspicion that he really might be right).

When I was younger I used to read things I thought were wrong and smugly dismissed them as due to some flaw on the part of the author. Luckily I've outgrown that. (Good thing too, as I no longer do embarrassing things like asserting that a multi-decade veteran of the industry must be some novice.)

Re: Show HN: Code Words, a quarterly publication about programming

#19
post #5

(commenting on one of the articles) Wow. Just stumbled upon the following quote and read the corresponding article. > Programming language comparisons usually focus on the brevity and expressiveness of the language. If the solution to a programming problem has fewer lines and is “easier to understand” or “clearer” in one language than another, that is an argument for using the former over the latter. This comparison…

> - https://codewords.hackerschool.com/issues/one/why-are-object... . > In all seriousness, this is one of the best articles I've ever read. I couldn't agree more with the author. I'm not sure if you are being serious (you say you are, so Po's law), but this is a bad article written by someone who I guess must be a novice who thinks he knows something now but will look back on this 5 years later and cringe; examples.…

One thing I think we could have done better with Code Words is added short bios. Bios add context, which is lacking here. Here's R0ml's bio from 2006[^1]:

r0ml is an software architect and systems designer with over thirty years of experience. For two decades, r0ml worked on Wall Street, developing market data, trading, risk management, and quantitative analysis systems. More recently, as chief technical architect at AT&T Wireless, he drove the improvement of their CRM, ERP, commission, and data warehousing systems. Over the last several years, r0ml has become increasingly interested in open source software strategy at large enterprises, and is a frequent speaker on the topic.

This is the same R0ml that thaumaturgy mentions in a sibling comment.

I've been lucky to meet a lot of very smart programmers over the past 3.5 years working at Hacker School, and R0ml is one of the people I respect the most. He has a lot of opinions about programming, many of them contrarian. I think this comes from his background. His career began in the '70s. He spent the first third of it working in APL, the next third in Smalltalk, and the most recent third in Java. Over the year or so that I've known R0ml, he's planted the seeds of a number of unconventional ideas in my head (program in the database, don't use libraries, write things from scratch, the expressive power of a language is partially derived from what's in its standard library). I'm sure these aren't all good ideas—maybe some of them are terrible—but they've profoundly affected the way I go about my programming. R0ml is on the short list of people I would want to work for if I was not running Hacker School.

I don't bring this all up to refute your opinions–R0ml may be wrong in this case or even in all cases–I mostly wanted to give some context explaining why the tone of your response made me sad and frustrated. The onus is on us to give readers context for what they're reading, and I don't think we did a great job of that, but if you're going to write such a mean spirited response, I think some of the onus is on you to do some research before accusing someone of being a novice and responding in a way that feels at least partially ad hominem.

Around a month ago, I read Programming with Managed Time[^2], the paper that you wrote with Jonathan Edwards for Onward! '14. I thought it was insightful, well written, and contrarian in the best of ways. The first things I thought when I finished it was "I bet R0ml would enjoy that."

I don't mean to compare Code Words to an academic journal (it's absolutely not), nor do I mean to compare R0ml's article to your paper in terms of scope, research, or time put into it (yours obviously took more time and has much greater insight than R0ml's short article). I'm just bummed that one person who's counterintuitive opinions and experience I respect would be so quick to dismiss the opinions of someone else who I respect for the same reasons.

I know that complaining about tone is often used to distract from more substantive issues, but I'm going to risk doing that anyway: Please be nice!

Thanks.

[^1]: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2006/view/e_spkr/1551

[^2]: http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/211297/onward14.pdf

Re: Show HN: Code Words, a quarterly publication about programming

#20
post #18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

You don't get to be a good writer via ad hominem attacks either. Having had several interactions with the author, I'd say he has a knack for putting forth controversial theses like the one in the article. I've disagreed with lots of them--but I've always gotten smarter thinking about why I've disagreed with them (and have often been left with the suspicion that he really might be right). When I was younger I used to…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN