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Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

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Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#31

Post by tjradcliffe »

alevskaya wrote: post #17

The worst consequence of this insecure, anxious, hypercompetitive culture is the near-impossibility of sincere collaboration. I speak from my experience as a very successful grad-student and postdoc in synthetic biology and neuroscience. Unlike equity in a startup, the kudos credit for publishing a high-impact paper is really only split between the first author and the lab PI, removing any incentive for trainees and…

This is one of the things that struck me most about moving out of academia and into various other things: how collegial in the best sense of the word most of the engineering teams I've worked on have been.

In academia, if you're any good, you're a threat to other good people. You try to be nice to each other, but when it's you and a few dozen of your closest colleagues in pursuit of the one or two tenure-track openings in your field this decade... there are limits on how collaborative you can be.

In the business world, if you're any good, you're a resource and people want to work with you. It's pretty awesome, actually, although there are obviously bad situations as well. They're just fewer and further between.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#32

Post by tjradcliffe »

angersock wrote: post #10
chatmasta wrote: post #5

My girlfriend is getting her PhD. We are planning a vacation right now. She works in a lab as a researcher, which is not a "real job" since she's getting her PhD. There are no specific regulations for vacation time, or anything for that matter. However, she's unsure how long she can take for vacation, and unsure whether she should ask her P.I. This is an example of the irony of academia. On one hand, the lack of clea…

Not to pick on your girlfriend but I've seen a variant of this phrase so often that I'm kind of baffled: "the lack of clear policies and regulations governing academia is one of its greatest advantages, because it gives your mind space to explore, and expands creative freedom." Are the folks in academia so creatively stunted that they can't find freedom outside of the ivory tower? It seems like such a silly argument.

Academics in many fields are very strongly socialized into the belief that nothing outside of academia is worthwhile. It isn't about creativity, it's about culture. They simply can't believe that there is a life worth living outside of the charmed circle.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#33

Post by angersock »

michaelochurch wrote: post #30
munin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well you could go work at google, amazon, facebook, or microsoft if you felt like writing an unending stream of javascript to better serve people ads. there are researchy parts of those companies but getting a job there is a lot like getting any other academic job in terms of competition and number of applicants, so it's effectively academia. what wondrous land do you propose that will support researchers and their d…

It's still harder to get a good academic job than a decent job in industry. I left a PhD program when I realized just how bad academia is, in comparison. Sure, you have to be good at politics to get a great corporate AI job, but you need political skill to get through academia as well. Politics is just a necessary evil; so just learn it so you can get things done and get back to more interesting stuff. It's not hard…

I'll second this--again, it's not like every second of your 9-5 is micromanaged: in fact, any shop like that is probably run by people that are easy to game with just a little application of intellect.

I wholeheartedly support the concept of slackademia...using idle cycles at work to learn about new, exciting things.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#34

Post by munin »

tdat13 wrote: post #19
munin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well you could go work at google, amazon, facebook, or microsoft if you felt like writing an unending stream of javascript to better serve people ads. there are researchy parts of those companies but getting a job there is a lot like getting any other academic job in terms of competition and number of applicants, so it's effectively academia. what wondrous land do you propose that will support researchers and their d…

I'm just curious, but your comment suggests to me that it is easy to switch from an academic program to working at google, amazon, facebook, or microsoft. Those jobs require training and experience that academia does not provide. Writing javascript and researching, as an example, topology are very different things. I also have a hard time believing that research at a corporation is effectively academia just because t…

well, if you're in a good PhD program for computer science, you probably have a really good BS in CS from somewhere with a high GPA and demonstrated work experience in the form of research, which was probably programming. your research probably involves developing some kind of software, if yours doesn't you as a student probably do programming for some other system that is someone else's research. you also work with other people and have deadlines and so on, so a lot of CS "research" is basically a job writing code for money.

my impression of research at facebook/google/microsoft is that they generally hire phds and they generally take phd students as interns, so if you drop out of a phd program, you're not working there (in a research role at least). so you have to finish your phd, then compete with everyone else for those jobs, just like postdocs and professor positions. once there, you have to justify your existence / funding the same way that you do as a professor (go ask people at MSR how this is going for them lately).

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#35

Post by analog31 »

Chinjut wrote: post #9
mdcpepper wrote: post #6

I didn't stay in formal education beyond high school so I can't really comment, but from that article: "Unfortunately, some of his colleagues felt that he did not secure sufficiently large research grants. So he was to be fired." However, Imperial College' statement on his passing claims otherwise: "Contrary to claims appearing on the internet, Professor Grimm’s work was not under formal review nor had he been given…

More fully: "Contrary to claims appearing on the internet, Professor Grimm’s work was not under formal review nor had he been given any notice of dismissal. It is standard practice at Imperial to conduct both informal and formal performance management. Professor Grimm’s line manager met with him on a number of occasions to see how the College could help him to develop more competitive grant applications, for example…

Wow, that sounds a lot like the first stage of progressive discipline. In other words, as I see it, he was in the process of getting fired.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#36

Post by tensor »

tjradcliffe wrote: post #32
angersock wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to pick on your girlfriend but I've seen a variant of this phrase so often that I'm kind of baffled: "the lack of clear policies and regulations governing academia is one of its greatest advantages, because it gives your mind space to explore, and expands creative freedom." Are the folks in academia so creatively stunted that they can't find freedom outside of the ivory tower? It seems like such a silly argument.

Academics in many fields are very strongly socialized into the belief that nothing outside of academia is worthwhile. It isn't about creativity, it's about culture. They simply can't believe that there is a life worth living outside of the charmed circle.

Having moved from academia to industry, industry is everything academics think it is.

A lot of arrogant people, a lot of incompetent people, equal or more politics, very few "hard" problems where hard is defined as "I'm not sure if there is a solution to this, or if there is I have no idea when we will be able to find it, if ever."

It's not about culture, it's about priorities. Academics are interested in solving hard problems or advancing our collective knowledge, not making a bank account higher, not serving ads, and not entertaining people.

Sure, in any large group, there are standout counter examples, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#37

Post by munin »

angersock wrote: post #33
michaelochurch wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still harder to get a good academic job than a decent job in industry. I left a PhD program when I realized just how bad academia is, in comparison. Sure, you have to be good at politics to get a great corporate AI job, but you need political skill to get through academia as well. Politics is just a necessary evil; so just learn it so you can get things done and get back to more interesting stuff. It's not hard…

I'll second this--again, it's not like every second of your 9-5 is micromanaged: in fact, any shop like that is probably run by people that are easy to game with just a little application of intellect. I wholeheartedly support the concept of slackademia...using idle cycles at work to learn about new, exciting things.

there's a big difference between "if I clock out an hour early, I can read some wikipedia pages before I commute home" and "take the next three weeks and read these 20 papers"

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#38

Post by tensor »

chatmasta wrote: post #15
angersock wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to pick on your girlfriend but I've seen a variant of this phrase so often that I'm kind of baffled: "the lack of clear policies and regulations governing academia is one of its greatest advantages, because it gives your mind space to explore, and expands creative freedom." Are the folks in academia so creatively stunted that they can't find freedom outside of the ivory tower? It seems like such a silly argument.

Surely there are opportunities outside of academia that do not restrict you to the 9-5 grind or subject you solely to the whims of "the man." But academia is one of the only options where that kind of freedom comes safely packaged and institutionalized. You get the advantages of prestige without the risk of something like entrepreneurship, which may be another option for finding creative freedom.

You do not have the luxury of doing serious research in a startup. At best you can do some applied research with a high probability of success. Mostly you just apply research to a given problem area.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#39

Post by analog31 »

alevskaya wrote: post #17

The worst consequence of this insecure, anxious, hypercompetitive culture is the near-impossibility of sincere collaboration. I speak from my experience as a very successful grad-student and postdoc in synthetic biology and neuroscience. Unlike equity in a startup, the kudos credit for publishing a high-impact paper is really only split between the first author and the lab PI, removing any incentive for trainees and…

I wonder if it's fair to generalize academia as a classic zero-sum game. Funding is, after all, limited by some mechanism analogous to central planning.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#40

Post by noobermin »

kleer001 wrote: post #13
Balgair wrote: post #2

How to get the best out of people is a millennial long question. Egyptians used whips and slaves, we have been using money and propaganda lately, but everyone uses something that may or may not be the most optimal method. The issue is that people are individual and respond differently each time you ask them. My condolences on the loss of life (I too have felt like the world was asking far too much of me and I had no…

"Best" is a pretty hairy topic. Does it mean "Most fulfilling existance", does it mean "Most benefit to humanity", does it mean "Most benefit to this country/children/etc..." There's no right answer. I submit that "Letting people expressing their freedom in a way that maximally lets others express the same." is more useful/enlightening/profitable than "Getting the best". But that's pedantic and hair splittery, like t…

Continuing this pedantry, one could argue s/he isn't claiming that what people _do_ be worth all the stars in the heaven, etc. This guy "getting a house in Montana" is him specifically rejecting that his worth is only his salary or position or career...even his pride. His sanity at least was worth it somewhat for him to take a sabbath to regain it.

I guess the next question then is what is it we value in ourselves and how do wee determine it? That's a harder question.

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