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Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

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Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#21

Post by Loughla »

jsnk wrote: post #4

Going into academia seems like the dumbest thing only smartest people do. Jump into a job market where you compete against the bright and ambitious individuals who will do everything to out-work you to fight for a small prize pool. The ending will most likely not be a happy one.

"Jump into a job market where you compete against the bright and ambitious individuals who will do everything to out-work you to fight for a small prize pool."

Isn't that sort of just defining finding a job in the general market? You're competing against other folks who are either more or less qualified than you are for a small prize pool.

That's the same thing.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#22

Post by eli_gottlieb »

chatmasta wrote: post #15
angersock wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to pick on your girlfriend but I've seen a variant of this phrase so often that I'm kind of baffled: "the lack of clear policies and regulations governing academia is one of its greatest advantages, because it gives your mind space to explore, and expands creative freedom." Are the folks in academia so creatively stunted that they can't find freedom outside of the ivory tower? It seems like such a silly argument.

Surely there are opportunities outside of academia that do not restrict you to the 9-5 grind or subject you solely to the whims of "the man." But academia is one of the only options where that kind of freedom comes safely packaged and institutionalized. You get the advantages of prestige without the risk of something like entrepreneurship, which may be another option for finding creative freedom.

>You get the advantages of prestige without the risk of something like entrepreneurship, which may be another option for finding creative freedom.

Entrepreneurs have to make a profit within 3-5 years. Research almost never will -- but when it does, holy crap!

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#24

Post by quonn »

munin wrote: post #16
angersock wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to pick on your girlfriend but I've seen a variant of this phrase so often that I'm kind of baffled: "the lack of clear policies and regulations governing academia is one of its greatest advantages, because it gives your mind space to explore, and expands creative freedom." Are the folks in academia so creatively stunted that they can't find freedom outside of the ivory tower? It seems like such a silly argument.

well you could go work at google, amazon, facebook, or microsoft if you felt like writing an unending stream of javascript to better serve people ads. there are researchy parts of those companies but getting a job there is a lot like getting any other academic job in terms of competition and number of applicants, so it's effectively academia. what wondrous land do you propose that will support researchers and their d…

I've worked at a few companies. My work rarely involved Javascript and never ads; I've not packed anything into excel and I had plenty of time to think about stuff. So please don't paint things black and white.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#25

Post by eli_gottlieb »

Balgair wrote: post #2

How to get the best out of people is a millennial long question. Egyptians used whips and slaves, we have been using money and propaganda lately, but everyone uses something that may or may not be the most optimal method. The issue is that people are individual and respond differently each time you ask them. My condolences on the loss of life (I too have felt like the world was asking far too much of me and I had no…

>If there was 2 things I wish the whole world could know, truly know deep down, they would be that you personally are worth all the stars in the heavens, all the grain in the fields, all the water in the oceans, and that everyone else is worth exactly the same amount; that we are all priceless.

Which, unfortunately, only tells us that we perhaps ought to trade off human lives against nonhuman lives or nonlives, since we can't actually give everyone all the stars in the heavens, and don't yet even have the power to divide them equally.

But the sentiment, at least, is correct, which is far more than we can say for many things.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#26

Post by cerrelio »

I left in the middle of a PhD for mostly this reason. I was introduced to politics of the department very quickly because I learned my advisor was not popular with most of the rest of the faculty. Only two of them would collaborate with her. She had a big fight with one of the more established researchers over patent rights a few years back.

I had met her as an undergraduate five years prior to when I became her grad student. She was pleasant, albeit a little pushy, but nothing offputting. She had changed in the interim. She would yell at me (and her other students) in her office for the slightest mistakes. During a meeting with other researchers and my colleagues she accused me of not completing my work. It took all my strength not to tell her to fuck off and walk out. Mind you, this woman gave me a rare A+ in her course just a few years before because I did stellar work.

She's certainly infected by the anxiety of academia and she passes it on to her students and subordinates. When I saw how being a university researcher transformed her I decided to give up my chosen route. It didn't seem worth it to me if there was a significant risk of becoming a bitter asshole.

I became a software engineer. So I probably make double what she does, I have a fraction of the anxiety and I'm not a bitter asshole.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#27

Post by aaronem »

davidmerriman wrote: post #3

Life is an 'anxiety machine.' Claiming academia killed this specific man is in extremely bad taste. And if we're speaking in generalities, I'd need to see evidence that academic positions correlate with higher rates of suicide.

Come now! Surely you can defend your sacred cow more vigorously than that. You're not starting to entertain second thoughts of your own, are you?

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#28

Post by michaelochurch »

davidmerriman wrote: post #3

Life is an 'anxiety machine.' Claiming academia killed this specific man is in extremely bad taste. And if we're speaking in generalities, I'd need to see evidence that academic positions correlate with higher rates of suicide.

If you or I get fired from a software job, it's 2-3 months to find another one. A fired academic is toast. We have more month-by-month job loss risks but they have long-term career risks. One hit on your reputation and you're done as a professor. So, they face a different set of problems.

Academia didn't kill him singularly but I'm sure that it was a contributing factor. Was it murder? No. Wrongful death? Yes.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#29

Post by michaelochurch »

johndcook wrote: post #18
chatmasta wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely there are opportunities outside of academia that do not restrict you to the 9-5 grind or subject you solely to the whims of "the man." But academia is one of the only options where that kind of freedom comes safely packaged and institutionalized. You get the advantages of prestige without the risk of something like entrepreneurship, which may be another option for finding creative freedom.

Agreed. Academics put up with a lot of crap because they're extremely risk adverse.

Very true. The twisted irony is that the long term risks of academia are devastating. We have a lot more short term job volatility in software, but unless we work for some outlier asshole who torches our reputations, we can usually get new jobs. Academics almost never get fired except at legible points (e.g. tenure review) but when they do, it ruins their lives in a way that most of us have never experienced.

Re: Academia as an ‘anxiety machine’

#30

Post by michaelochurch »

munin wrote: post #16
angersock wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to pick on your girlfriend but I've seen a variant of this phrase so often that I'm kind of baffled: "the lack of clear policies and regulations governing academia is one of its greatest advantages, because it gives your mind space to explore, and expands creative freedom." Are the folks in academia so creatively stunted that they can't find freedom outside of the ivory tower? It seems like such a silly argument.

well you could go work at google, amazon, facebook, or microsoft if you felt like writing an unending stream of javascript to better serve people ads. there are researchy parts of those companies but getting a job there is a lot like getting any other academic job in terms of competition and number of applicants, so it's effectively academia. what wondrous land do you propose that will support researchers and their d…

It's still harder to get a good academic job than a decent job in industry. I left a PhD program when I realized just how bad academia is, in comparison. Sure, you have to be good at politics to get a great corporate AI job, but you need political skill to get through academia as well. Politics is just a necessary evil; so just learn it so you can get things done and get back to more interesting stuff. It's not hard compared to category theory.

In the corporate world, the failure mode is a crappy job that still pays as well as the AI gig; it's just not as sexy. Then you can slack, learn the skills for your next gig (it's not like you need to be in academe to read papers) and get something better. In academia, the failure mode is being dumped with no money and no reputation in some godforsaken No Country for Old Men reach, being 35 and trying to get an entry-level gig in something.

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