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Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

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Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#211

Post by thismat »

johnnybgoode wrote: post #162
chrischen wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, people who praise China's system isn't completely nuts. I have lived in China though, and I have a bunch of relatives there. I also visit regularly. But the fact is that the general consensus among Chinese youth (both from those I've encountered and from sentiments I've read on the web) is that even they don't like their current system. Even older generations acknowledge the fact that their standard of livin…

> But the main difference between China and America is that China is authoritarian and America (and all the developed world) is democratic. The problem is that "democratic" is not the opposite of "authoritarian". China and the US both have authoritarian governments, although they do of course differ in certain ways. > And as evident in the development of a society: as the standard of living and education of the popul…

the US is definitely B. Because my parents did just that, they didn't like the public (or private) schools in my area, and instead mixed homeschool/unschooling principals for me and my brothers.

I don't know enough about China to say it's "A", I can assume it is, but I could be very wrong.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#212

Post by johnnybgoode »

thismat wrote: post #211
johnnybgoode wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the main difference between China and America is that China is authoritarian and America (and all the developed world) is democratic. The problem is that "democratic" is not the opposite of "authoritarian". China and the US both have authoritarian governments, although they do of course differ in certain ways. > And as evident in the development of a society: as the standard of living and education of the popul…

the US is definitely B. Because my parents did just that, they didn't like the public (or private) schools in my area, and instead mixed homeschool/unschooling principals for me and my brothers. I don't know enough about China to say it's "A", I can assume it is, but I could be very wrong.

No doubt there is still some flexibility in the US, but unfortunately the US is also A, not B. I'm assuming you and your parents did not receive exemptions from taxes, legal credentialing requirements, and the like.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#213

Post by thismat »

johnnybgoode wrote: post #212
thismat wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the US is definitely B. Because my parents did just that, they didn't like the public (or private) schools in my area, and instead mixed homeschool/unschooling principals for me and my brothers. I don't know enough about China to say it's "A", I can assume it is, but I could be very wrong.

No doubt there is still some flexibility in the US, but unfortunately the US is also A, not B. I'm assuming you and your parents did not receive exemptions from taxes, legal credentialing requirements, and the like.

Not from taxes no, that's a must I'm afraid and a big downside to the whole situation.

legal credentialing requirements in Texas at the time were almost non existent so we didn't have to worry about that, my parents were considered pretty radical by peers back when we started, because homeschooling wasn't fleshed out nor well received at the time.

I still remember my parents not letting us go out mid-day by ourselves due to them not wanting everyone thinking we were just a bunch of hoodlums skipping school. Instead we got invaluable experience working at the family business.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#214

Post by bayareaguy »

basugasubaku wrote: post #164
bayareaguy wrote: post #133

The folks who've lead the development and improvement of Unix over the years: dmr, bwk, jkh, tdr, cgd, ...

Who are the last three and did you intentionally omit Ken Thompson?

The last are a few folks behind *BSD (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD) whose logins/monikers I happened to recall. I only omitted Ken (and others too numerous to mention) mainly because I've not had the pleasure of corresponding with him.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#215

Post by philwelch »

johnnybgoode wrote: post #202
philwelch wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a bit of verbal slight-of-hand, yes. I meant to imply that if you're willing to say "the ends justify the means" to kill people at Tiananmen Square, you don't have very good standing to criticize the French Revolution, because it's in fact easier to make that same argument about the French Revolution than it is about Tiananmen Square.

> it's in fact easier to make that same argument about the French Revolution than it is about Tiananmen Square No, it isn't, because your argument depends on the "end" being an escape from "absolute monarchism" into democracy. Even if you believe the ends justify the means in general, the argument doesn't work when the end result is not very good.

I'm still not sold on the benefits of an absolute monarchy.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#216

Post by chrischen »

johnnybgoode wrote: post #208
chrischen wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that "democratic" is not the opposite of "authoritarian". Sorry bad choice of word I guess. What I meant is that China's government is authoritarian but it is also closed, whereas the US government, although it has authority, it is responsible to the people, even though indirectly. > is not too far off from describing the strategy of the ruling class in most modern democracies. The ruling class in mo…

> What I meant is that China's government is authoritarian but it is also closed, whereas the US government, although it has authority, it is responsible to the people, even though indirectly. Every government answers to the people in some sense, because no government really wants all of its people to be against it. That would cause problems. This is one reason both the Chinese and US governments expend so many resou…

Yes every government has to satisfy it's people, or it will be overthrown. The question is which typed of government is designed to satisfy the people. Whether or not it satisfies the people is up to reality to determine and enforce. The idealogies of the governments may not necessarily account. I think the current gov't in china, an authoratative oligarchy, is designed so that the majority of people are kept from weighing in on the decision making. This is again because of the assumption that the majority is uneducated and therefore unfit to rule. The democratic style in the US is by design meant to give people more power, and make the government more accountable to the public. It does his because of it's design of seperation of powers, so that no one entity can take over all governmental bureaucracies. This also makes it easier for dissenting groups to introduce disruptions to the government, which is so slow, ineffective, divided, and powerless. Since everyone is striving for power, and it's so easy to disrupt power if any one entity gains too much power, the government never becomes a single ruling class or entity that may significantly alter the status quo for better, but more horrifyingly, for worse. So it introduces stability. Of course this gets into the other topic about conformists killing society. But in a democracy nonconformist still have more freedom to thrive.

For your second point, I have to say while the US has a formalized education system, the very concept of freedom of speech information is freely accesible and propogated outside of the education system, independent of government control. Compare this to China where the government has the final say on information on top of control of he education system. Also not everyone has to attend government schools in he US. So ultimately in the US you definitely have more freedoms in terms of doing what you want.

For the third paragraph, I am not talking about rule based on hereditary titles or class. In fact I am talking about the exact opposite. The US system promotes a smart business man to run a business because he will have the best practical results, and a smart person to run a state, presidency, etc. This is what I mean those fit to rule will rule. The democratic process naturally weeds out those who suck so that those deserving, by merit, will come out on top.

In terms of efficiency, the American system may not be that great, but it is stable, and this stability means any attempt to radically improve it's system will be tough since there is always the risk it could fail miserably. Democracy is the stage for when people are comfortable, and stability is needed.

Obviously the education system needs reform and more freedom, but I think democracy is heading in the right direction.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#217

Post by chrischen »

johnnybgoode wrote: post #212
thismat wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the US is definitely B. Because my parents did just that, they didn't like the public (or private) schools in my area, and instead mixed homeschool/unschooling principals for me and my brothers. I don't know enough about China to say it's "A", I can assume it is, but I could be very wrong.

No doubt there is still some flexibility in the US, but unfortunately the US is also A, not B. I'm assuming you and your parents did not receive exemptions from taxes, legal credentialing requirements, and the like.

It is not A by your definition that the person has NO choice in education. In the US we clearly do have choice, and even if we go the public education route, we still have the freedom to pursue spread and pursue information independently.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#218

Post by johnnybgoode »

philwelch wrote: post #215
johnnybgoode wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's in fact easier to make that same argument about the French Revolution than it is about Tiananmen Square No, it isn't, because your argument depends on the "end" being an escape from "absolute monarchism" into democracy. Even if you believe the ends justify the means in general, the argument doesn't work when the end result is not very good.

I'm still not sold on the benefits of an absolute monarchy.

The problem is, it's far from self-evident that democracy is better.

Re: Ask HN: Whom do you admire most?

#219

Post by johnnybgoode »

chrischen wrote: post #217
johnnybgoode wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt there is still some flexibility in the US, but unfortunately the US is also A, not B. I'm assuming you and your parents did not receive exemptions from taxes, legal credentialing requirements, and the like.

It is not A by your definition that the person has NO choice in education. In the US we clearly do have choice, and even if we go the public education route, we still have the freedom to pursue spread and pursue information independently.

You don't have the option of not paying for govt. schools. You don't have the option of avoiding legal credential requirements in many careers. Again the US is obviously not identical to China, but they are both A.
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