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The Open-Office Trap

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Re: The Open-Office Trap

#141

Post by dismal2 »

ryandrake wrote: post #94
mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

I'm apparently one of the few unashamed Open Office boosters here, so let me see if I can help. I've worked as a developer for about 12+ years, then as a product/project manager for about 4 years. As a developer, I worked about half that time in soft-walled cubicles of various heights and another half in open office environments. I spent a year or so in a shared walled office. As a project guy, I spent about 3 years…

> The whole business about having to waste an hour to get back into the zone after an interruption is, frankly, total BS.

there's your opinion and then there's science which actually goes out and sees how the real world works (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interruption_science)

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#142

Post by sehr »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #91
sehr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do you honestly work every second of every workhour? This isn't Germany, breaks and downtime are inevitable

No, I don't. But I don't through a nerf ball around the office either. Sure, some people may need a break of think better when doing an activity but you have to be a moron to think throwing something around an office is ok. Go for a walk. Find another bored employee to talk to. Browse the web. Grow up.

Sorry, I'll get off your lawn now.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#143

Post by mtourne »

jdbernard wrote: post #127
ryandrake wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm apparently one of the few unashamed Open Office boosters here, so let me see if I can help. I've worked as a developer for about 12+ years, then as a product/project manager for about 4 years. As a developer, I worked about half that time in soft-walled cubicles of various heights and another half in open office environments. I spent a year or so in a shared walled office. As a project guy, I spent about 3 years…

There are a couple of things in what you said that raise some pretty big flags for me: nobody gets to hidey-hole in their office, pretending to not be part of a team. Seriously? That's what you think people are doing in their office: hiding from the team? I love being part of a good team. I love white-boarding broad design. I love sitting down and hammering out the nitty-gritty details. I even like pair programming a…

I think I would generally agree with what you said here.

I'm curious if you've succeeded in finding an office environment that would let you work that way ?

Unless you're working from home most of the time, it seems like "the management" would generally not be too keen to this.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#144

Post by jdbernard »

taternuts wrote: post #62
hammock wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High-walled cubicles is a common compromise

I truly don't understand some peoples hatred of cubicles. Sure I'd rather my own office with a door (I guess), but high-wall cubicles provide just enough privacy for me to keep outside distractions from being a problem (unless a cube-mate starts whistling or something).

I had a shared office with one other programmer working on the same stuff as me for my first job. After that I took a job where I was in a cube. After having an office cubes are almost unbearable. Cubes also tend to come with a lot of bad practices like not actually having a door, facilities setting up your desk so that you have to sit with your back to the "doorway", getting shuffled from one cube to the next with regularity, and ever-decreasing work-space.

One place I worked for started me in an 8x10 cube, moved me to a different floor and into an 8x8 cube, then across to another floor into an 8x8 cube which had a supporting pillar through it, making it more like a 6x4 cube, and finally into a conference room with 6 other people, all within the space of a year. I miss my office.

Don't get me wrong, I'll make do wherever. But compared to having an office cubes and open plan are worthless.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#145

Post by varelse »

shortstuffsushi wrote: post #98
michaelochurch wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. Open plan offices save about 75-100 SF per employee (more, if you're looking to be sadistic and impractical, but at this point, the productivity loss is obvious.) So the employe…

This seems like an unfairly-condescending post to me. The last line primarily. I don't think that having an open office implies the stereotypical "nerf gun wars, billiards, and foosball" environment (or at least it doesn't at the company I'm working for). Nor does it mean that those who work in it are irresponsible, immature, or self-important. Certainly those conditions exist, but it's not fair to generalize it that…

I have yet to work in an open floor plan that was without barking dogs, nerf guns, loud meetings, and the occasional R/C helicopter.

I work from home 75% now. When I'm in the office, I get next to nothing done.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#146

Post by jdbernard »

mtourne wrote: post #143
jdbernard wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of things in what you said that raise some pretty big flags for me: nobody gets to hidey-hole in their office, pretending to not be part of a team. Seriously? That's what you think people are doing in their office: hiding from the team? I love being part of a good team. I love white-boarding broad design. I love sitting down and hammering out the nitty-gritty details. I even like pair programming a…

I think I would generally agree with what you said here. I'm curious if you've succeeded in finding an office environment that would let you work that way ? Unless you're working from home most of the time, it seems like "the management" would generally not be too keen to this.

No, I haven't. It's a big part of why I have changed jobs frequently over the last couple of years. It continues to be a source of frustration.

Looking back on my comment I was more harsh than I intended and a lot of that is because I am so frustrated with the current standard working environment. If I didn't have a family to take care of I would be extremely tempted to leave software as a profession entirely because of it.

When I was hired at my current job we had full-height cubes which are still not ideal, but workable. But now I've been shuffled into a new team working back in an open plan office. Many days after work I just want to go live in a cave and be left alone. It's not normal for me to be so socially drained and it's not a healthy dynamic for my family. I'm trying on the side to get my own company off the ground so that I can work the way I want to. We'll see.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#147

Post by Guthur »

JeremyMorgan wrote: post #72
michaelochurch wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. Open plan offices save about 75-100 SF per employee (more, if you're looking to be sadistic and impractical, but at this point, the productivity loss is obvious.) So the employe…

>Well, private offices make nerf-gun battles harder. And you hear less juicy gossip. And you don't have an audience for self-important rants about Lena Dunham. It might get so "boring" (in the sense of a lack of distractions) that you might be tempted to actually work to pass the time. Amazingly this is also an argument from working from home. I've been at two companies during a WFH transition and they act surprised…

"Of course this doesn't cover those who "work from home" by watching Netflix and jiggling the mouse on their laptop every ten minutes or so. I'm talking about the more responsible people."

It's probably still more productive because now they are not distracting anyone.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#148

Post by rayiner »

varelse wrote: post #145
shortstuffsushi wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like an unfairly-condescending post to me. The last line primarily. I don't think that having an open office implies the stereotypical "nerf gun wars, billiards, and foosball" environment (or at least it doesn't at the company I'm working for). Nor does it mean that those who work in it are irresponsible, immature, or self-important. Certainly those conditions exist, but it's not fair to generalize it that…

I have yet to work in an open floor plan that was without barking dogs, nerf guns, loud meetings, and the occasional R/C helicopter. I work from home 75% now. When I'm in the office, I get next to nothing done.

Dogs at work?!

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#149

Post by mahyarm »

state wrote: post #44

I can see how open offices are deeply unproductive for mid to large sized companies. But for a team of Does anyone else have experience with small teams working in open spaces?

Those are more team rooms which is different from open office and personal offices. When it's that small your all one team.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#150

Post by georgemcbay »

taternuts wrote: post #62
hammock wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High-walled cubicles is a common compromise

I truly don't understand some peoples hatred of cubicles. Sure I'd rather my own office with a door (I guess), but high-wall cubicles provide just enough privacy for me to keep outside distractions from being a problem (unless a cube-mate starts whistling or something).

In my experience, the hatred of cubes is a hold-over from when the alternative was real offices. Compared to open plan, cubes are a step up.
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