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The Open-Office Trap

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Re: The Open-Office Trap

#131

Post by jdbernard »

fixedd wrote: post #69
michaelochurch wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. Open plan offices save about 75-100 SF per employee (more, if you're looking to be sadistic and impractical, but at this point, the productivity loss is obvious.) So the employe…

At a former job I worked from home where I had peace and quiet pretty much all day. I only really worked 4-5 hours in a day, but I was significantly (in the order-of-magnitude realm) more productive than my in-office teammates. On the occasion I'd go into the office for a few days my productivity level would similarly plummet, even though I was working for more hours each day. I can only attribute this to the incessa…

I know it is just anecdote, but I'm the same way. I just don't have the flexibility to work from home regularly. With one company I previously worked for I took a sick day to stay home so I could actually finish an important project.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#132

Post by mb_72 »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #2

Everyone seems to hate open offices, but since it's all I've ever known, what's the alternative? Everyone get a 4-walled office?

The first job I worked had each office shared by two developers; this seemed to provide a good balance between 'quiet time' and having someone close by you could bug (assuming they didn't look busy) to discuss something.

In my 20-year career, I've only worked in an open office once for 6 months, and it was a significant factor in me quitting. I sat immediately adjacent to a managerial-type guy, and he had people dropping in all the time to discuss something; I'm talking 10 people per hour, on average. I would defy anyone getting any complex programming work done under those circumstances.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#133

Post by rattray »

click170 wrote: post #113
ryandrake wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm apparently one of the few unashamed Open Office boosters here, so let me see if I can help. I've worked as a developer for about 12+ years, then as a product/project manager for about 4 years. As a developer, I worked about half that time in soft-walled cubicles of various heights and another half in open office environments. I spent a year or so in a shared walled office. As a project guy, I spent about 3 years…

Thank you for your comment, it provides perspective other than my own which is refreshing and valuable. I think one of the OPs points touches on this directly though. What is the ratio of questions asked to answers provided, or to put it another way, how many questions are you asking vs how many people come to you for help with their own question? I humbly submit that perhaps you are asking more questions than you ar…

Regarding "interruption deficit", or open-plans being important only to those who ask a lot of questions, I think their experiences _do_ matter. I would guess that these people are mostly junior developers, project managers, or simply people (extraverts?) who prefer social interaction as a part of their work.

Their opinions matter too. Junior developers will probably suffer without easy access to those around them (yes, it's annoying for the senior devs, but that's part of the job). PM's, similarly, need to be effective; in a well-run company, they're there to help and if open-offices are important to that, well, there you go.

I'm a fan of slack etc, but I'm also an extravert. If I'm not talking to others as a part of my job, I'm going to be miserable and leave. I don't think I'm the only one.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#134

Post by [deleted] »

mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

[deleted]

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#135

Post by aetherson »

mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

I've worked as a developer for 15 years. The first ten or so were in cubes, the last five or so have been in open office plans.

I'd say that I ask other people questions about five times per day and get asked questions about seven times per day, though that's fluctuated a lot. When I'm coming up to speed on a project, language, or company, I obviously ask more questions. When I was the lead engineer at my previous company, I got asked more questions.

Personally, I find the open plan office energizing. I have a social development style anyway (I'm most productive when pairing, and I find that talking through a problem often gives me insight into it), and I don't very often find that I want or need to dive deep into something for 4+ hours at a time -- I'm more likely to make progress at a large project by chipping away at it in half hour to two hours in increments, with breaks that involve a focus change.

While I have met some developers who are very productive in the "go into a room, close the door, emerge a half day or a day later with code" style, the majority of developers I've met who rail against interruptions and distractions seem to be incapable of producing good work even when they are given their wish and not interrupted.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#136

Post by varelse »

Symmetry wrote: post #48
mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

I've been happy with open plan offices when the seats are far enough apart. If you open someone's door you are certainly going to interrupt them, but looking at someone's face often lets you know if this is a good time to ask them a question or not. My favorite work environment (where I stayed for 1.5 years) was open plan. My least favorite work environment (2 years) was also open plan where people were packed in.

And that's the insidious rot in every open floor plan I've experienced. Once you've put everyone in an open space, step two is to keep packing them in tighter and tighter until they start quitting because that's the only way to continue improving shareholder value(tm).

Anecdotally, the managers always seem to manage to keep their private offices. Funny that...

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#137

Post by nowarninglabel »

mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

Just to throw another data point at ya:

1) 9 years

2) 1 year in shared office with only boss, 4 years in shared office with 4 other people, 4 years in a fully open office

3) In person I never interrupt others, but I will IM others about 3 times a day. As far as folks interrupting me, I spend 25% of my time managing folks, so I expect (and get) lots of interruptions, but people know to IM me first. Headphones help as a signaling mechanism for this, as well as blocking out noise.

I loved my office that was just me and my boss as it was quiet and also had a great view. I also love my current open office because it's a great space and facilitates easy conversation, plus my standing desk is next to a window. It's no honeymoon period, been a developer for 9 years and in the workforce for 15 years.

Also, I absolutely hated the shared office with 4 people. Just absolutely terrible to be in cubicles in a small space with none of the benefits of a private office or open office. And people constantly opening the door to go in and out until we finally everyone was just propping their doors open, so it was semi-open anyways.

Edit to note: I work for a great non-profit and it helps to be surrounded by people I love and who I know are working hard to make a positive change for the world. If I were working for a corporation I'm not sure if I would feel the same about an open office plan or not.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#138

Post by rattray »

pbreit wrote: post #97
ColinCochrane wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting point. It reminds me of something Joel Spolsky wrote: Here's the simple algebra. Let's say (as the evidence seems to suggest) that if we interrupt a programmer, even for a minute, we're really blowing away 15 minutes of productivity. For this example, lets put two programmers, Jeff and Mutt, in open cubicles next to each other in a standard Dilbert veal-fattening farm. Mutt can't remember the na…

Does FogCreek still have the "Bionic Offices"? http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/BionicOffice.html I thought the "light on two sides" was particularly clever. One thing holding back enclosed offices in SF is the very high ceilings in many of the older buildings. would high walled cubes work?

This appears to be their new office space: http://www.businessinsider.com.au/stack-exchange-office-tour...

And these are shots from their new Denver office: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stackexchange/7776308984/in/set... http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2012/09/join-us-for-our-openin...

tl;dr there is at least some open-plan stuff. Which, really, just makes the most sense; a healthy mix of options is hard to argue with.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#139

Post by jdbernard »

mkehrt wrote: post #121

Having worked in a place with offices and now being in a place with an open plan, I'll never go back. There's light, there's space, there's people around, I have a better idea of what people are working on, I learn by hearing people talk, it's easy to move to a new desk if I want, the list goes on and on. It's so much better for me mentally that there's no comparison. I think this is an area people can disagree reaso…

I can agree that it is a matter of taste and different people will want different things. The problem is that 99% of us have no say. For me personally open plan is hell. I am mentally drained by the constant distraction by lunch. I have a really hard time sitting down to focus deeply on a problem because my subconscious has been conditioned to expect interruption. It's worse than trying to work in the same room as my kids playing.

I can disagree reasonably, but what good does that actually do me? Do I talk to my manager about it? He agrees but has no control over the layout. The upper-level management? They don't agree and don't care. Find a new job that's not open-plan? I already did, and then my team got all moved into one big conference room.

This isn't good for my mental health or productivity. But its what most companies do so I'm stuck.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#140

Post by click170 »

rattray wrote: post #133
click170 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your comment, it provides perspective other than my own which is refreshing and valuable. I think one of the OPs points touches on this directly though. What is the ratio of questions asked to answers provided, or to put it another way, how many questions are you asking vs how many people come to you for help with their own question? I humbly submit that perhaps you are asking more questions than you ar…

Regarding "interruption deficit", or open-plans being important only to those who ask a lot of questions, I think their experiences _do_ matter. I would guess that these people are mostly junior developers, project managers, or simply people (extraverts?) who prefer social interaction as a part of their work. Their opinions matter too. Junior developers will probably suffer without easy access to those around them (y…

I don't disagree with anything you've said, it is important that the job is fulfiling for both introverts and extroverts and that's a very difficult balance to strike.

It's important to point out though that if you make asking questions too easy for new employees, they can end up leaning on that as a crutch instead of developing the troubleshooting skills necessary to solve problems independently.

I've been on both sides of this fence. I've been that new colleague hunting for info that isn't clearly documented, and I've also been the senior colleague who was the go-to person whenever a problem came up that didn't have an immediately-clear answer. I was lucky in that shortly after I started my only senior resigned leaving me with nobody to ask, which forced me to get good at that kind of troubleshooting.

It makes me wonder if new colleagues should be given a time period for when they are allowed to ask any question no matter how stupid. After that time, they can of course still ask questions but it's expected that they try to find an answer before asking. Along the same lines of pair-programming for colleagues who have been here less than 1 year.

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