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The Open-Office Trap

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Re: The Open-Office Trap

#51

Post by djloche »

NhanH wrote: post #37
michaelochurch wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Real offices for everyone, and some open space (e.g. meeting and lunch tables) for people who want it. People should be in contact some of the time, but not exposed to every inane conversation. Also, open-back visibility (that is, being visible from behind) does more damage than the noise itself, and there are no noise-canceling headphones for that. Office space isn't that expensive, compared to the productivity…

Just to clarify on "open-back visibility", it means that people can see you from behind (ie your back is facing the door/ open space rather than a wall, and by extension it means that they can see your screen), right? If that's the case, I agree with you, but I'd like to see more details on how/why it is the case. Do you by any chance have any more evidences?

eg. cubicle, meaning, there is no physical door to shut that when it is shut it means Do Not Disturb.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#52

Post by Sophistifunk »

bengarvey wrote: post #16
pm90 wrote: post #12

I work for a company whose entire office is on an open plan. Yes, even the CEO sits in a cubicle, as do all the senior management and stuff. And this is not a startup, mind you, its a mid size company. Although it was kinda scary at first, I've adapted to it, and can see the practical benefits. Not having special offices, there is a sense of egalitarianism amongst the workers and none of the usual rat-race for better…

If you have cubicles, I don't think that's an open office.

What about those half-height cubicles? That's what I've dealt with in almost every enterprise/gov position I've been in over the years in .au

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#53

Post by michaelochurch »

NhanH wrote: post #37
michaelochurch wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Real offices for everyone, and some open space (e.g. meeting and lunch tables) for people who want it. People should be in contact some of the time, but not exposed to every inane conversation. Also, open-back visibility (that is, being visible from behind) does more damage than the noise itself, and there are no noise-canceling headphones for that. Office space isn't that expensive, compared to the productivity…

Just to clarify on "open-back visibility", it means that people can see you from behind (ie your back is facing the door/ open space rather than a wall, and by extension it means that they can see your screen), right? If that's the case, I agree with you, but I'd like to see more details on how/why it is the case. Do you by any chance have any more evidences?

I don't have papers on it. Just years of painful experience, but something I've noticed is that (a) people with walls at their back are generally more productive, and (b) successful or powerful people usually choose seating arrangements that give them a barrier. Visibility from behind suggests low social status and makes people feel "watched".

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#54

Post by briandear »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #35
pm90 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably not affordable for a majority of companies.

Have your developers work from home then. I work for a fully funded startup where the entire team is remote. I would never go back to an office (I have insane levels of productivity compared to my last gig that had an open office plan, not to mention 0 commute time).

Bravo! My productivity (and motivation) is orders of magnitude higher when I can work in my house in the South of France or at my mother in law's house on the Mexican Riviera.) I will give you 10 hours a day of full productivity if you can save me from my old Jersey City-NYC commute. I don't need to play ping pong with you to build great software for you.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#55

Post by VLM »

vacri wrote: post #30

The regular classroom, not the 'open classroom', is the analogue of the open office - a group of people with a common task, unseparated by walls. A private tutor would be the educational equivalent of a private office. Additionally, 'open-office' to me means OpenOffice, and while I can accept that it doesn't to everyone, be consistent . It's one of the rules of good journalism. The hyphen in the heading is not used i…

With all due respect, the open office educational analogy is the cafeteria study hall, with everyone walking around and gossiping and goofing off and basically getting nothing productive done other than putting on a show.

If the open office full of distractions is the ideal working environment, then when I get an emergency call from work, I assume I'll fix the emergency faster if I take my laptop to the neighborhood daycare center and sit down right in the highest chaos room. Oddly enough at home when no pretensions are necessary because there is nobody to show off to, people who have to actual work, pick a nice quiet closed door "office".

A lot of open office love comes from utterly incompetent management and its very politically incorrect to discuss this other than semi-anonymous forums like this. "I have no idea how to manage these people or how to convince them to do what I want, but at least I can see them all squashed together like sardines". If your standard of performance is low enough, mere visibility is at least better than nothing.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#56

Post by kale »

ereyes01 wrote: post #27
jimktrains2 wrote: post #2

Everyone seems to hate open offices, but since it's all I've ever known, what's the alternative? Everyone get a 4-walled office?

Perhaps a way to mitigate the bad effects of open offices is to allow people to work from home when they need to focus. I spent a year and a half working in an open floor plan, and about 90% of my coding got done at home. I'd remain well-connected to everyone over Skype, and I'd only show up to socialize and/or attend necessary meetings. Perhaps this isn't optimal for every employee/company, but it's how I made the b…

I have children that are not yet school aged at home. Working from home only happens after bedtime (and that's if I decide not to spend any time with my wife after the kid's bedtime).

I also work in an "open" plan (recently transitioned to it). The most productive I ever am is when I'm travelling for work. It's the only time I get privacy.

As a side anecdote: I was listening to NPR about a prisoner that was talking about how he turned his life around in prison and read an incredible amount of books. I was feeling jealous of him for a few minutes until I realized how screwed up it was. I was jealous of the free time and relative privacy that a prisoner had. I never get privacy unless I'm travelling for work. Never.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#57

Post by bengarvey »

Sophistifunk wrote: post #52
bengarvey wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have cubicles, I don't think that's an open office.

What about those half-height cubicles? That's what I've dealt with in almost every enterprise/gov position I've been in over the years in .au

If you can see people while you are sitting, I'd consider that an open office.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#58

Post by georgemcbay »

oldmanjay wrote: post #31
mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

Perhaps you can explain something to me that I have found mysterious for years - how does one develop the mindset where they cannot conceive that their opinions on things are not universal? Three separate times in your screed you insinuate that people who like what you do not are not thinking. It's incredibly arrogant.

I'm not the OP, but I'm aligned with the OP in being against open offices. I'm also very cognizant of the fact that I don't have a single opinion that is universal.

But opinions aside if we look at actual studies (at least among the research I've seen, some of which is referenced in this article) far more often than not they point to open offices being an overall negative for knowledge workers.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#59

Post by VLM »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #45
vacri wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, I've been able to save days of employee time by hearing a conversation between two colleagues that had a faulty assumption on our infrastructure setup.

But does a plus that happens once or twice a year outweigh minuses that happen multiple times per day?

And would the plus have even been necessary if the environment were not highly distracting? The best way to fix a bug is to prevent it from happening.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#60

Post by JoshTriplett »

kale wrote: post #47
sliverstorm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd never think you'd hear this, but IMO full height cubicles are a step up from the open office plan without running the bill of true offices.

I was transitioned from a full-height cubicle (in a corner, no less) to a half-height cubicle. I can see from the neck up of the person in the next cube while seated. This was done to "increase collaboration", however myself and my team are placed by a group of people from HR, so it's constantly our recruiters on the phone pre-screening candidates. We never need to interact with them. And I know they are annoyed with…

> I was transitioned from a full-height cubicle (in a corner, no less) to a half-height cubicle. I can see from the neck up of the person in the next cube while seated.

Wow, that's absurd.

Our company transitioned from 6 foot cube walls to 4.5ish foot cube walls, such that you can see over the cube walls if you're standing up, but not when sitting down. It works very nicely for being able to see across most of the floor, to easily find someone you're meeting with (and who is thus also standing looking around), or to collaborate with your team over cube walls. But if you're sitting down, you have walls all around you, both to muffle noise and to provide a comfortable feeling of privacy.

There are also a large number of drop-in conference rooms ("collaboration rooms"), and some one-person phone-booth rooms for fully private phonecalls.

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