Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Open-Office Trap

newyorker.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 194 posts

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#31

Post by oldmanjay »

mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

Perhaps you can explain something to me that I have found mysterious for years - how does one develop the mindset where they cannot conceive that their opinions on things are not universal? Three separate times in your screed you insinuate that people who like what you do not are not thinking. It's incredibly arrogant.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#32

Post by vacri »

ColinCochrane wrote: post #28
mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

That's an interesting point. It reminds me of something Joel Spolsky wrote: Here's the simple algebra. Let's say (as the evidence seems to suggest) that if we interrupt a programmer, even for a minute, we're really blowing away 15 minutes of productivity. For this example, lets put two programmers, Jeff and Mutt, in open cubicles next to each other in a standard Dilbert veal-fattening farm. Mutt can't remember the na…

Conversely, I've been able to save days of employee time by hearing a conversation between two colleagues that had a faulty assumption on our infrastructure setup.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#33

Post by Yizahi »

mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

Also as a related but possibly incorrect observation - it seems that there is usually more table space per employee in cubicle layouts than in open-space. Whenever I see open-space office pictures there are long rows of tables and each worker has a laptop, maybe one monitor and small place for notes and stuff. And right next starts another similar workplace. In 4-person cubicle I (and all the the others in the office) have place for 2-3 or 4 monitors, laptop in dock, heaps of wires, analyzers, stacks of device parts, normal keyboards and mice, plants and other stuff and have free space left.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#34

Post by sehr »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #18
sprkyco wrote: post #6

I had one experience in an "open office" for approximately six months. It was terrible, constant shuffling of people to acquire the plethora of free food available. Nerf Gun wars and the constant click clack of ping pong approximately 30 ft. away. This article has offered me some vindication in my distaste for the "open office".

Seems like the problem wasn't the open office plan but grown-ups playing with nerf guns and ping pong when they're being paid to work.

But do you honestly work every second of every workhour? This isn't Germany, breaks and downtime are inevitable

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#35

Post by toomuchtodo »

pm90 wrote: post #7
thanatosmin wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes.

That's probably not affordable for a majority of companies.

Have your developers work from home then. I work for a fully funded startup where the entire team is remote. I would never go back to an office (I have insane levels of productivity compared to my last gig that had an open office plan, not to mention 0 commute time).

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#36

Post by serve_yay »

mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

I have had both and been working in software about 10 years. I don't know if I would say open offices are an unalloyed good, but I would say that people tend to focus on the negatives without honestly considering the drawbacks of the alternatives they'd prefer.

Further, the time when I did have my own office was when I got interrupted the most. My boss would come in all the time and talk to me about whatever, a lot of times not even work-related stuff. Now I work in a place where people will only ever try to interrupt you via Slack, and if you tell them you're busy they will go away. So I think there is a cultural aspect as well, if your company accepts people bothering you whenever, I don't honestly believe an office will put a stop to that.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#37

Post by NhanH »

michaelochurch wrote: post #25
jimktrains2 wrote: post #2

Everyone seems to hate open offices, but since it's all I've ever known, what's the alternative? Everyone get a 4-walled office?

Yes. Real offices for everyone, and some open space (e.g. meeting and lunch tables) for people who want it. People should be in contact some of the time, but not exposed to every inane conversation. Also, open-back visibility (that is, being visible from behind) does more damage than the noise itself, and there are no noise-canceling headphones for that. Office space isn't that expensive, compared to the productivity…

Just to clarify on "open-back visibility", it means that people can see you from behind (ie your back is facing the door/ open space rather than a wall, and by extension it means that they can see your screen), right?

If that's the case, I agree with you, but I'd like to see more details on how/why it is the case. Do you by any chance have any more evidences?

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#38

Post by bwsewell »

I agree that the open office layout definitely hinders your ability to focus. My current company has an open office but about 9 empty offices that people can go into and focus if they need them. That has worked out well... people utilize those often... I certainly do.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#39

Post by davidmerriman »

The upside to the open office is that collaboration is effortless.

The downside is that collaboration can become a crutch. It will only hinder you when you need to do the kind of "nose to the grindstone" work that's often needed.

To me, the ideal working scenario includes a private working space for each person and a public space for when collaboration is needed.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#40

Post by michaelochurch »

mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides.

Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. Open plan offices save about 75-100 SF per employee (more, if you're looking to be sadistic and impractical, but at this point, the productivity loss is obvious.) So the employer is saving, at absolute most, $5000 per employee per year. It's not worth it.

I bring this up because I just really truly don't get the occasional open office boosterism here. My current theory is that most of it comes from people who are still in the honeymoon phase of their career (like, the first few years after college when everything about the workplace still has some novelty to it).

That's basically what it is. The open-plan layout is reminiscent of college and the all-nighters in the computer lab. But work is not college. A bad grade on an assignment is much more fixable than getting fired. The stakes are higher, and that's why a certain brand of professionalism (or, more bluntly, divorcing oneself from behaviors that are acceptable for 18- to 21-year-olds) is necessary.

I say this because it seems like many/most of the people I talk to in person who like the open office idea have either literally never had a private office, or are relatively fresh out of college and get a job at Google (or a startup, or wherever), and they're still so excited about everything that even the things that are hassles (like open office plans?) seem like they're brimming with novelty.

Well, private offices make nerf-gun battles harder. And you hear less juicy gossip. And you don't have an audience for self-important rants about Lena Dunham. It might get so "boring" (in the sense of a lack of distractions) that you might be tempted to actually work to pass the time.

Post reply on HN