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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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601–610 of 644 posts

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said! You'll never outbid a body shop. They'll essentially spend whatever it takes to get the workers here and bill them out for 3x whatever they paid. If you as the product company don't like it tough luck. This is because the people is the product for these companies, product companies have other things to concentrate on.

If they're charging 3x whatever they paid, that pushes up prices for the companies hiring the body shops, which incentivizes finding cheaper competitors to body shops in the labor market -- like hiring domestic workers, for example. The pricing mechanisms of the market will optimize out a balance.

Just a random, unhelpful ping into this conversation to point out that the economics of billing out a programmer for "3x" (I assume you mean "3x the fully-loaded cost of the programmer as an FTE for the consultancy, broken out by hour") is a lot more complicated than this thread makes it sound.

Companies aren't simply using those "3x" contractors as a shortcut to avoid finding and hiring full-timers. A big chunk of that "x" is business value created by the consultancy and sold to the client; the biggest chunk of that involves risk management.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#602

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

This comment started out sympathetic, veered into an energetic deployment of anecdata, and ended up in a very creepy place.

I'm not sure where I land on the H1B question; it's hard to see how there can simultaneously be a labor shortage and that immigration is going to be helpful to tech workers already here.

But if you want to help make the case against them, probably leave out the appeals to "ethnic ghettos".

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way…

This is really a contract that some Americans would like to impose on other Americans. The U.S. is a free country; that's the social contract. People are free to live where they want, associate with whom they want, and speak whatever language they want. Other people are free to accomodate them to the degree they wish, or not. But the idea that you're not "really" American unless you fit some predefined set of charact…

You are right. In America we deplore things like bribery, oppression of women, caste systems, rule of law, human trafficking, honor killings, etc. We will impose that social contract on anyone who migrates here. Even if you are Sir Elton John, you are just Elton John here. If you bring slave servants to the US and enslave them here, as has happened, you'll be thrown in prison. It's not about language.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#604

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

What people don't quite understand because it has been hammered into the minds of the minds of the middle class for decades now by the ruling elite is that immigration to the USA is bad for everyone involved all around, with exception of the ruling elite. Sure, on an individual basis someone immigrating from central Asia or Central America will be far better off coming to the USA, but fact of the matter is that not only are they sabotaging the local population but they are also being played and harming the source country they come from, which is the even greater damage. The brain, brawn, and bravado drain caused on source countries by the USA sucking up talent is the largest factor of mid to long term problems and failures in source countries, all while also sabotaging and manipulating the market in the destination (USA) country. I don't care what bleeding heart liberals whine and cry about, they are causing more damage than they appear to have the capacity to grasp. It's a process not unlike the damage cause by all the development "assistance" of the past century.

Additionally, what the wealthy are doing in the USA (and other places) by supporting immigration (Pro tip: republicans only dislike immigrants and illegal immigrants when they lie to the faces of their voters) is undermining challenges and competition by the middle class and even the most modest improvement for the more challenged classes. What they are doing with immigration of any kind is sabotaging market factors that would require them to pay fair wages and appropriate costs.

Sure, some will make the argument that blather, blather global market blather captialism * blather* but the fact of the matter is that the wealthy only want everything to flow one direction. They don't want global or even domestic competition and transparency for CEOs, they don't want competition at all. What they want is to rig the game, they want to change the rules as it benefits them at every single step of the way. They are nothing different than the little shit you played with in childhood, who used to change the rules as he started losing at the game or wasn't totally dominating you. What the wealthy do ... what they are ... are the people who sabotage success, they snipe progress in order to keep anyone else from competing with them; because what the wealthy hate even more than the middle class is true competition. They love fake, rigged, and manipulated competition though that means they will win with as little effort as possible.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#605

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

Man, you make me ashamed to call myself American. What are you so afraid of? Have you ever been to a nice Indian restaurant in Sunnyvale? I'm glad those ethnic conclaves exist. Also, from a strictly moral perspective, the attitude that you deserve special treatment based on the fact that you were born within an imaginary closed cell on a map just isn't justified. What makes you so special versus someone from Asia wit…

One could make the argument that Americans deserve American jobs more than foreigners because the vast majority of Americans have been contributing to American society their entire lives through their work and taxes and will most likely continue to until their death.

Foreigners come to the US having never been part of the society that made the job possible.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#607

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

"We" don't need anything in this. Immigrants don't assimilate the moment they get here. They never have. The old saying is, "The parents don't speak English, the children are bilingual, the grandchildren speak English". There have always been ethnic neighborhoods, as long as there's been immigration. Having said that, H1Bs are indentured servitude.

As someone who came from Europe to the U.S. on an H1B and then won a GC through the lottery: it never felts at all as indentured servitude.

At some point I managed a group of 10 people and had insight in the salaries of 40 engineers. There was no correlation between H1B status and salary, and we weren't given instructions either about giving less to H1Bs. Increases were purely determined by employee performance.

I understand that it can be frustrating for local STEM candidates to compete against foreigners, but let's not forget that those locals include the full spectrum, from best in class to worse, whereas those H1B candidates have a much higher chance of already being top talent. You can't fault companies for choosing the best.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A shortage is a lack of supply, a company unwilling to pay above $X is not a shortage of supply, it is a shortage of demand. If we have a shortage of carrots, we dont have enough carrots at ANY price. If people are unwilling to pay 5$/LB for carrots but thats what they cost in the store, that is not a shortage. What this discussion is about is substitute goods[1] replacing standard goods. In this case US workers are…

> A shortage is a lack of supply No, a shortage is the discrepancy between the quantity supplied and quantity demanded at a given price. When wages offered are too low, there is a shortage of labour supply. Increase those wages and that shortage disappears. > If we have a shortage of carrots, we dont have enough carrots at ANY price. This is simply not true. > If people are unwilling to pay 5$/LB for carrots but that…

I did some looking around and you're absolutely correct about economic shortages.

From wikipedia: "In most cases, a shortage will compel firms to increase the price of a product until it reaches market equilibrium. Sometimes, however, external forces cause more permanent shortages—in other words, there is something preventing prices from rising or otherwise keeping supply and demand balanced."

In this case, the H1-B visas are the external force, and are preventing supply and demand from being balanced. Basically because of the availability of cheaper labor, companies are willing to pay less for ALL labor which creates the shortage.

My completely misremembered thinking was that simply because they don't WANT to pay a higher wage, does not create a lack of labor - but i see know that it does in fact create an economic shortage of labor AT THAT PRICE. I was thinking of 'labor shortage' meaning that there is not enough actual people qualified to perform a job; when really in this case it is much more reflecting employers unwillingness to increase wages to the level that qualified people would be willing to compete.

thanks for the discussion!

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a software engineer and green card holder from Brazil and there is nothing I want more than to see many of my friends who work in Brazil have the opportunity to come here to work in a great industry. That being said, both you and the anon person you replied to are right about the situation. The position you came to fill is a relatively rare skill here in the US and it helps the US to bring in talent from abroad,…

> salaries rise to the levels enjoyed by doctors and lawyers The BLS says the median salary for a lawyer is $112k. Median salary for a software developer is $93k. The $19k difference is not that big when you consider that lawyers have a higher startup cost and higher ongoing cost - wardrobe, dry cleaning, law school tuition + 3 years' opportunity cost. Plus law firms can be a grind, far more than soft eng gigs.

> when you consider that lawyers have a higher startup cost and higher ongoing cost - wardrobe, dry cleaning, law school tuition + 3 years' opportunity cost. Plus law firms can be a grind, far more than soft eng gigs.

How much you should earn is about supply versus demand, the latter of which is dependent on value created. The cost structure underneath merely sets the minimum price at which a profession is viable.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alternatively, I would be okay with eliminating the lottery and giving visas out on the basis of the premium companies are willing to pay over the salary a domestic worker would be paid. If your company is willing to pay 2.0x foo for a position, then you will get the H1-B visa ahead of a company only willing to pay 1.5x foo. The floor would be set at something like 1.1x foo. That would only help the largest compani…

Then you take that premium, and put it in a scholarship fund for STEM students....

I really like this idea. Requiring more long-term strategic funding of more domestic STEM candidates as a condition of H1-B makes a lot of sense.
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