Immigration is about talent, not costs • Hacker News Board

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#471

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 11:59 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #457

sliverstorm wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way…

Since when? The first three generations of my family in America spoke German. My home town was basically a group of people from a German town who up and moved to start a new town in the Midwest and went on living there as if nothing changed. Hundreds of Midwest towns and cities started the exact same way. Why is it different now?

Because it's only ok when white people do it.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#472

Post by dllthomas » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 12:00 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #470

dllthomas wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presented with an individual, it actually doesn't matter whether the problem was nature or nurture. What matters is what you can do about it now. Bear in mind that I brought this up as a possible objection that needed addressing, to the argument "we don't need more average minds - look at all the average minds we're not using".

> Presented with an individual, it actually doesn't matter whether the problem was nature or nurture. What matters is what you can do about it now. But that's the problem. Doing something with the late 30s unskilled laborer with no job is something we might be able to just break even on, or at least not lose too much in retraining for humanitarian reasons, and doing that is arguably better than abandoning those peopl…

Letting people take the jobs that best fit them, the world over, means more jobs are better done sooner, which means more resources available to do things like retrain.

None of this has much to do, anymore, with the question of whether there is "demand for average human brains", incidentally.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#473

Post by vonsnowman » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 12:08 AM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #430

vonsnowman wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get me wrong, the terms of the H1B are pretty terrible but that should not detract from Yuri's point that quotas and other immigration restrictions have a serious impact on smaller companies' ability to hire the best employees. Similarly a lot of people talking about salary are missing the point. Sure, there might be more candidates if the salary offered were higher but even if they had the right skills (and th…

dude, it's just a job. You're not making the world a better place. You're building slightly better corporate file sharing. That's it. It's a dropbox or box or btsync competitor tuned for corporate clients. And it's just a job. Not a mission. People jump out of bed to go skiing, or cure cancer, or research fundamental physics, or to practice medicine, or to help the needy, or to help animals, or to put a human on mars…

Such anger.

I don't recall claiming to make the world a better place. We've changed our focus since I joined and to be honest I was more excited about the original vision but I'll take corporate file sharing over online advertising any day.

Then again, I'd take life as an itinerant purveyor of french toast and fine liquors over online advertising so I'm hardly representative of the average person in this "industry".

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#474

Post by thro1237 » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 12:09 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #279

deskamess wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree... (was on H1). The core problem is that the sponsoring company is in control. Control needs to be moved to the candidate (worker). The H1 should not be tied to the employer, but to the candidate, and they should be able to switch employers by registering their new employer with the DHS (HR of the new company and employee act on signing day). H1'ers should be free to move at will and immediately after enterin…

Allowing H1Bs to bounce around (unless each job they take can't be filled by the domestic workforce) would violate the intent of the law. "The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States." http://w…

Companies are supposed to pay an H1-B workers the prevailing wage. But the fact is that real wages are a very wide range that would depend on your exact skills and competence. So companies can get away with paying an H1-B worker less than his real market value and the worker cannot easily switch jobs. If the worker could easily switch jobs, then there is no real incentive for the company to hire a worker and pay him lower wages (). Because, very soon he will switch to another company that pays him his real wage. The problem with the H1-B system is that the law is based on the assumption that fare wages can be enforced by statute as opposed to by ensuring competition.

() One can argue that large companies might have incentives to bring in more H1-Bs to increase the overall labor pool, which in turn will reduce wages for everyone. This can partially be offset by having high fees for H1-B workers.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#475

Post by tarikjn » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 12:16 AM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #415

_delirium wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I'd support allocating H1Bs by highest-salary-first, instead of via the current first-come-first-served system with a difficult to enforce "prevailing rate" requirement tacked on. Doing so would also tend to allocate the slots to areas where they're most in demand: if a company is offering $140k salary and wants an H1B to bring the person in, I'm more willing to believe this job has a shortage than if anot…

At the same time, I think it would be awesome to start a petition to draw attention to such an idea so that it does become part of the agenda somehow. If such an idea did become part of the national discussion regarding H1-B visas, it would be extremely difficult for those trying to get these visas to depress wages to argue against this. I for one would sign such a petition and I know a lot of people who would (Ameri…

Given that the White House gave information that they are asking the USCIS to streamline processing of visa through these kinds of tweaks (the law doesn't say how the quotas should be distributed AFAIK), I believe the correct venue would be a whitehouse.gov petition.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#476

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 12:17 AM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #298

barrkel wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a H-1B visa. I was living in Ireland at the time. But, as it turned out, I never moved to the US. It was for a compiler position at Borland. I ended up working remotely for the next 6 years or so, first for a year as a contractor at a 6 figure Euro rate, then later as a salaried employee after I moved to London. They flew me over two to four times a year to keep up to date with the team. I collectively lived ov…

I'm a software engineer and green card holder from Brazil and there is nothing I want more than to see many of my friends who work in Brazil have the opportunity to come here to work in a great industry. That being said, both you and the anon person you replied to are right about the situation. The position you came to fill is a relatively rare skill here in the US and it helps the US to bring in talent from abroad,…

[deleted]

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#477

Post by astigsen » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 12:17 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #247

halflings wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way…

Obligatory xkcd: http://xkcd.com/84/

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#478

Post by rbanffy » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 12:18 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #247

halflings wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way…

I can't understand that attitude. The whole point of moving to another is to embrace the new country and learn from the experience.

There is a lot more to the US than learning English. This is not just a change of address.

I can say for myself, if I ever move to the US, I'd probably be end up as involved in politics as a non-citizen can be.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#479

Post by valar_m » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 12:19 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #461

valar_m wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "You" when not addressing anyone in particular is a classic dog whistle technique. Everyone in the audience knows exactly who you're talking about, and plausible deniability is preserved for future accusations of racism/bigotry. Of course, silverstorm did not actually explain anything at all. All he did was repeat a few standard dog whistle arguments used by racists with a couple of geek culture references thr…

If I'm arguing, what am I arguing for? Because it isn't less immigration. If I could have my way, we'd abolish H1B's and Visas and instead simply grant citizenship to basically anyone who wanted it (excepting, I don't know, internationally wanted criminals?). Well, maybe there is still a place for visas if the person only wants to work in the US for a while and their birth country does not allow dual citizenship. But…

Here we see silverstorm employ a pair common techniques for handling criticism of dog whistle rhetoric.

First, he attempts to leverage previous deliberately vague language with a trap -- a demand for the respondent to place his vague language into precise terms:

If I'm arguing, what am I arguing for?

Of course, this is a can't lose situation if the respondent obliges. It does not matter what answer is given, the response will be that they are wrong and mistaken about challenges of racism, as evidenced by their wrongness. Vague language is what allows this to happen.

Silverstorm uses this as a starting point for an attempt to regain control of the conversation. As I mentioned below, this is a key concept of dog whistle techniques:

It is a strategy based on controlling the conversation

The comment to which silverstorm is responding makes no mention of H1Bs or Visas or dual citizenship, nor does it take any position on grants of citizenship. But that's what silverstorm is going to pretend happened. It's an attempt to take control of the conversation.

For an interesting exercise, open the links to the two comments in separate tabs. See if you think you could tell just from reading that one of those was in direct response to the other when the comments are no longer stacked and indented.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#480

Post by dasil003 » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 12:20 AM UTC

valar_m wrote: post #462

dasil003 wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason is because it's typically ignorant xenophobic racists who complain the loudest about x or y group not assimilating. Now I don't think this is you, but that's just the way the argument smells. Let's step back a minute: what is the big deal with people attempting to preserve their culture when they come to the US? Isn't it a free country? And materially I don't see how it harms anything because the American…

This is a really great example of how powerful the dog whistle techniques used by racists can actually be. Your instincts picked up on something from silverstorm 's comment, but a lack of concrete evidence made it very difficult to say out loud what you were actually thinking. You were forced to go from: this offensively racist image you've got in your head All the way back to: Now I don't think this is you, but that…

What? I think you have me confused with someone else.