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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#401

Post by jbooth »

ep103 wrote: post #224
halflings wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

You're entire post is based on a strawman argument. OP didn't say that companies shouldn't hire non-American talent. He said companies should hire non-American talent through traditional immigration proceedings, and that the H1B program lends itself to an exploitative employer-laborer relationship, that ultimately serves to unfairly lower industry pay rates.

Traditional immigration proceedings? You mean the system where if you're from China or India, you have to wait 3-5X as long for a green card as people from western europe?

Yeah, that system sounds great. Dunno why people in software engineering of all industries would have a problem with that system.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#402

Post by ktom »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

if there isn't a talent shortage and there are workers in the bay area without jobs that work in engineering I would appreciate an intro to said workers.

also to clarify, if you mean there isn't a shortage and that i just have to offer higher salaries to poach from other companies I would categorize that as a shortage since it will just results in the equivalent of music chairs for jobs.

i don't mind paying top dollar for the best engineers but if the permanent state is music chairs for engineers that to me implies a shortage. Irrespective of the salaries you have to pay, there should be enough engineers to fill all job openings otherwise I would say there is a shortage.

not advocating excessive numbers of workers to drop salaries, ideally it would (job openings -1) number of engineers.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#404

Post by anjc »

illumen wrote: post #147
alyandon wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've worked at multiple companies (managed their websites) -- where we would temporarily post a job description to >appear that it was a fair playing field for local workers -- when in reality that position was definitely, absolutely >going to be filled by a cheaper, exploitable H1B visa position. I worked as a contract developer for over 10 years and this was absolutely the norm for the companies I worked at. It wa…

Any evidence? Otherwise I don't believe you.

There's lots of evidence out there. Probably the most obvious signal for you should be that companies are complaining about a lack of workers, but wages are stagnant. Or another signal might be the fact that 50% of STEM grads have to work in unrelated industries because of an inability to find work in tech. If you want more proof of funniness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

Or if you want proof of major tech companies in the US colluding to suppress wages, look up everything related to this:

http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f262600/262654.htm

If you want proof of US companies paying slave wages in the US, etc etc. The funniness goes on and on.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#405

Post by robwilliams »

DigitalSea wrote: post #393
300bps wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First you said: it is not that they are looking for "cheap labour" Then you said: The company is based in Seattle and they are facing increasing competition from Microsoft and Amazon mostly who are sucking up all of the talent in the area, whilst other smaller startups and companies struggle to hire people because the bigger companies are offering more money. Your second statement contradicts your first statement. Wh…

At face value, I can see why you think that. Supply and demand, as supply dwindles and demand increases, the price increases as well, right? Simple economics. I understand it and I get it, but I don't think the instance of developers that it is fair that bigger companies with larger profits and reach should be able to take all of the talent in the area by offering above average salaries to get them to sign. Smaller c…

>Forget the money for a moment, when there is nobody to pick from or you are constantly entering into a bidding war with Application A who has received an offer from Google for $250k per year and all you can offer is $125k and perhaps some other perks, is that fair? Google aren't paying $250k because they think the applicant is worth it or that is the going market rate, they are paying this much because they know the application nine times out of ten will say yes to a ridiculous sum of money, because they need a developer and the cost is irrelevant to them and because they can.

How is this not fair? If Google can offer more money to hire a skilled developer, they will. To get top talent you have to pay for it.

>Smaller companies with half the profits and budgets shouldn't have to compete or die, it just is not fair.

Yes it is. Compete or die is the entire basis of the US economy, isn't it?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#406

Post by anjc »

bduerst wrote: post #373
x0x0 wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno where you're getting these claims, and by the way it's the companies not citizens, but let's read the previous comments. > LordHumungous : h1bs often get paid less > bduerst: no they don't, because that would be against the law > me: mocks foolishness it's like you're deliberately unaware of companies' very successful efforts to modify the law in self-dealing ways, and even when that fails, to route around th…

The article linked to was an opinion piece against immigrants, hence the context. I also eluded to there needing to be evidence, which the op piece didn't really provide.

There's plenty of evidence, and governments in western countries are lowering the "prevailing wage" requirements to far below market rates.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#407

Post by malandrew »

nostromo wrote: post #398
molmalo wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alternatively, I would be okay with eliminating the lottery and giving visas out on the basis of the premium companies are willing to pay over the salary a domestic worker would be paid. If your company is willing to pay 2.0x foo for a position, then you will get the H1-B visa ahead of a company only willing to pay 1.5x foo. The floor would be set at something like 1.1x foo. That would only help the largest compani…

That's just life. Google will always have more money than your startup. But that doesn't mean all the best people work for Google. Compete asymmetrically.

This. You need to make money to be able to pay for the workers you need for your business to function. To argue against this reality is akin to saying: "I want there to be H1-B visa holders so wages remain low", which is the exact what the top most comment is saying H1-B visas do.

Developers are valuable. We should be paid accordingly. Many of us are employees now. A fraction of us will become founders one day. This approach simply allows companies to actually get the talent they urgently need to succeed. Paying a premium should absolutely not be a problem if you in fact do have a genuine need for talent that doesn't exist in the US at any price (which is the argument being made in this blog post).

I want to be paid a fair wage. I also plan on being a founder (again. failed once). If engineer wages rise making some business models inviable, c'est la vie. I will just have to make sure to start a business that can actually earn money and pay the bills to hire the talent I will need. When I do found my own company, I am more interested in being able to get the talent than paying a premium.

The way things are now, the benefit basically already goes to the Google's and Apple's of the World. How many startups actually go through the whole process of trying to get H1-B visas to get talent. Every startup I know doesn't consider the process viable because it's not expedient. If I need an engineer within 6 months and I have a candidate willing to work for my business from another country, it would be amazing to pay a 1.5x premium to actually be able to have them over here in the US and helping me and my colleagues build a business together ASAP. The H1-B visa process is so drawn out right now that by the time you get your H1-B visa candidate you're already at the end of your runway.

I would love to see AeroFS write a blog post considering the solution I proposed (which many agree with judging by the number of upvotes thus far).

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#408

Post by aidenn0 »

DigitalSea wrote: post #393
300bps wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First you said: it is not that they are looking for "cheap labour" Then you said: The company is based in Seattle and they are facing increasing competition from Microsoft and Amazon mostly who are sucking up all of the talent in the area, whilst other smaller startups and companies struggle to hire people because the bigger companies are offering more money. Your second statement contradicts your first statement. Wh…

At face value, I can see why you think that. Supply and demand, as supply dwindles and demand increases, the price increases as well, right? Simple economics. I understand it and I get it, but I don't think the instance of developers that it is fair that bigger companies with larger profits and reach should be able to take all of the talent in the area by offering above average salaries to get them to sign. Smaller c…

If Google regularly pays people more than the value they create, they will eventually run out of money.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#409

Post by chroem- »

avemuri wrote: post #280
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> It absolutely, positively hurts local labor - naturalized citizens - etc. Without a doubt. This may be unpopular, but so what if it hurts local labor? The global flow of goods is good, but the flow of labor is bad? Twenty years ago Pepsi and Coke entered the Indian market and destroyed/replaced the local beverage industry. Uber and Amazon have launched their own price wars more recently. A lot of people want Indian…

>The global flow of goods is good, but the flow of labor is bad?

But that's just it: this is an attempt to slow the flow and distribution of capital (wages) by importing cheap labor. It allows even more economic power and resources to be concentrated in even fewer hands. It should be pretty self-evident why that's undesirable.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#410

Post by throwaway989839 »

barrkel wrote: post #272
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

I got a H-1B visa. I was living in Ireland at the time. But, as it turned out, I never moved to the US. It was for a compiler position at Borland. I ended up working remotely for the next 6 years or so, first for a year as a contractor at a 6 figure Euro rate, then later as a salaried employee after I moved to London. They flew me over two to four times a year to keep up to date with the team. I collectively lived ov…

> When you artificially limit the supply of qualified labour, all you can do is shuffle your existing resources - paying more won't increase the supply quickly enough.

Yes, but that is all that needs to happen actually. The problem is not a shortage of talent-- the problem is the proliferation of meaningless projects drowning out the signal in the noise. What we need is a system to get the best engineers working on the most important projects and to let the rest sort itself out. We don't need multitudes of mediocrity-- we need rather the most talented producing moderate amounts of highest quality work toward the right ends.

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