Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way…
How many tech companies apply for H1-B visas for developers who are unable to speak any English at all? Your post has such an overwhelming air of nationalistic, racist sentiment. "These foreigners come over here, they don't even speak english, and they take all our jobs". The reality is that most of the foreign developers I've met speak english and communicate at least as well as other developers we've hired here, an…
Immigration is about talent, not costs
391–400 of 644 posts
Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs
#392Earlier quoted context omitted.
How would you enforce what market rate is? What prevents a company from saying that market rate is something absurdly low?
That's why I'd support allocating H1Bs by highest-salary-first, instead of via the current first-come-first-served system with a difficult to enforce "prevailing rate" requirement tacked on. Doing so would also tend to allocate the slots to areas where they're most in demand: if a company is offering $140k salary and wants an H1B to bring the person in, I'm more willing to believe this job has a shortage than if anot…
(For the reason cited in your parenthetical comment.)
Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs
#393The experience for getting a working visa in the US is absolutely atrocious, and let me preface this with the fact I am Australian and Australia offers an E3 visa which allows you to work in the US indefinitely for the sponsoring company. It doesn't have the same issues as a H1-B visa (lottery, restrictions on when you can apply), but offers just as much flexibility and power. I am currently a remote worker for a US…
First you said: it is not that they are looking for "cheap labour" Then you said: The company is based in Seattle and they are facing increasing competition from Microsoft and Amazon mostly who are sucking up all of the talent in the area, whilst other smaller startups and companies struggle to hire people because the bigger companies are offering more money. Your second statement contradicts your first statement. Wh…
While I agree that companies should not see it as an excuse to hire cheap talent elsewhere, when there is nobody to pick from in the pool (nobody decent) then where do you go? When the likes of Google are actually offering students jobs before they've even graduated and entered the job market, how does little ACME Corp or Joe Startup compete when workers are being plucked before they even enter the workforce?
Forget the money for a moment, when there is nobody to pick from or you are constantly entering into a bidding war with Application A who has received an offer from Google for $250k per year and all you can offer is $125k and perhaps some other perks, is that fair? Google aren't paying $250k because they think the applicant is worth it or that is the going market rate, they are paying this much because they know the application nine times out of ten will say yes to a ridiculous sum of money, because they need a developer and the cost is irrelevant to them and because they can.
Proper average market salary and inflated market salary are two different things, wouldn't you agree? And people ask if we are in a tech bubble? When graduate developers fresh out of college are being offered the kind of salaries close to what the prime minister of Australia earns (about $500k AUD for reference) you have to ask yourself, is it fair for smaller companies to compete or die because some big companies have set the bar way above average market rate?
But like I said, I know there are companies that take advantage of overseas workers. I have heard stories of people being forced to work ridiculous hours because they are on a H1-B and know that if they fire the employee, everything they have just packed up and moved thousands of miles will have to be packed up and transported again back home. But not all companies are like that, just like not everyone is a racist. It's always a handful of people that ruin it for everyone else.
Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs
#394Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…
I got a H-1B visa. I was living in Ireland at the time. But, as it turned out, I never moved to the US. It was for a compiler position at Borland. I ended up working remotely for the next 6 years or so, first for a year as a contractor at a 6 figure Euro rate, then later as a salaried employee after I moved to London. They flew me over two to four times a year to keep up to date with the team. I collectively lived ov…
Surely then wages would be skyrocketing for that limited number of qualified workers, rather than remaining static, which they have. This is what has happened in the past in the tech industry, and it's what happens in other industries. Supply and demand, as you said.
> paying more won't increase the supply quickly enough
So individual companies wont pay more because the national supply wont increase as a result? This doesn't make sense
Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs
#395Earlier quoted context omitted.
A decent home in a good school district is around $2.5m in the Bay Area, so $250k before taxes might get you qualified for a mortgage (provided you saved $500k for a down payment). $100k, while above U.S. median household income, would not go very far in the Bay Area. Even in Eastern Europe, there are places with very high standards of living for talented developers, such as Prague or Warsaw. With the EU, Berlin, Vie…
>A decent home in a good school district is around $2.5m in the Bay Area Reference please? I've looked for homes in good school districts and found your number not even close (its much less). See Zillow
http://www.greatschools.org/search/search.page?distance=30&g...
Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs
#396Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is patently false, and a common misunderstanding of immigrantion laws by U.S. citizens. >Requirement 4 - You must be paid at least the actual or prevailing wage for your occupation, whichever is higher. http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupatio...
The government defined "prevailing wage" for a level 1 software developer in San Francisco is $74,000. Does that sound like a market rate to you? http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41884... Edit: For a "web developer" the starting number is $52,000. In San Francisco. http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41884...
Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs
#397Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The only way it could not be true if there is actually no one in the local labor market who can do the job, and that's a very difficult argument to make. Outside of that, every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting. Does that mean being a citizen entitles one to a job regardless of qualification? Also, does that mean 100% of the US should be employed before bringing in foreign workers? I think such generalizations ar…
Note that there's no value judgment being made here. Nor am I claiming that H1s are low paid. You're still arguing against the same strawman. To reword: if an H1 gets a job, a qualified citizen is not getting that job. Except in very exceptional circumstances, this hurts said citizen, and by extension the labor pool of people who could be substituted in for said citizen.
Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs
#398Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm a software engineer and green card holder from Brazil and there is nothing I want more than to see many of my friends who work in Brazil have the opportunity to come here to work in a great industry. That being said, both you and the anon person you replied to are right about the situation. The position you came to fill is a relatively rare skill here in the US and it helps the US to bring in talent from abroad,…
> Alternatively, I would be okay with eliminating the lottery and giving visas out on the basis of the premium companies are willing to pay over the salary a domestic worker would be paid. If your company is willing to pay 2.0x foo for a position, then you will get the H1-B visa ahead of a company only willing to pay 1.5x foo. The floor would be set at something like 1.1x foo. That would only help the largest compani…
Google will always have more money than your startup. But that doesn't mean all the best people work for Google.
Compete asymmetrically.
Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs
#399Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It absolutely, positively hurts local labor - naturalized citizens - etc. Without a doubt. So does buying hardware that's made overseas. Interesting that this argument is made now, but how many local programmers ever bought anything electronic which was a little more expensive but made in the US instead of overseas? Why do software jobs deserve protection but hardware jobs do not? The amount of hypocrisy here is nau…
Why do CEO jobs deserve protection and {...} do not? Why do physician jobs deserve protection and {...} do not? Either we make the US job market open for all types of jobs, or have the same rules applied to all professions. Right now, there are many jobs that are heavily protected (how many CEOs/Wall Street types are H1B?), while others are not.
"About half of VC-backed company founders are immigrants"
http://venturebeat.com/2006/11/15/note-to-washington-about-h...
CEO jobs are not 'protected'.
Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs
#400Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Pricing a scarce resource doesn't "screw over" anyone. Citation needed! For reference, here's a toy model where pricing a scarce resource screws someone over: - There are two people in the model, Alice and Bob. - Alice is very rich, Bob is very poor. - Each of them needs a loaf of bread per day to survive (100 utility), and would also enjoy eating a second loaf (1 utility). - Initially, each of them gets a loaf fro…
Not being able to afford the market price of a resource is not "getting screwed" and you're just being inflammatory by making it a matter of life and death. H1B visas are not a matter of life and death; we're talking about people who want to make more money, not people seeking political asylum. Suppose we make your exact scenario about a rare/endangered species of caviar. Bob can still buy bread for one credit but yo…