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A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

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Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#11

Post by rcarmo »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #5
reirob wrote: post #3

"Mouse usage is obligatory. You cannot use the acme editor, for instance, without frequently taking your hand off the keyboard." - in my opinion this is a disadvantage and I wonder if this can be improved and if so, in which way.

Complaining about mouse chording in Plan 9 is one of those bikeshed arguments that people love to raise all the time. No, you can't "improve" on it without making it something that isn't Acme.

I haven't used a mouse on my desktop (any desktop, really) in over four years - I use Apple's Magic Trackpad to get the same experience and precision I have on my laptop.

That said, considering that many more people use laptops these days, mouse chording is somewhat passé and hasn't caught up with the times. But I'd actually rather have the window manager work more like other environments (without using different buttons to get different behavior on window edges) and would love an actual compositor and better font rendering.

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#12

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

reirob wrote: post #3

"Mouse usage is obligatory. You cannot use the acme editor, for instance, without frequently taking your hand off the keyboard." - in my opinion this is a disadvantage and I wonder if this can be improved and if so, in which way.

Vim for Plan 9: http://www.vmsplice.net/9vim.html

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#13

Post by smazga »

rcarmo wrote: post #11
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complaining about mouse chording in Plan 9 is one of those bikeshed arguments that people love to raise all the time. No, you can't "improve" on it without making it something that isn't Acme.

I haven't used a mouse on my desktop (any desktop, really) in over four years - I use Apple's Magic Trackpad to get the same experience and precision I have on my laptop. That said, considering that many more people use laptops these days, mouse chording is somewhat passé and hasn't caught up with the times. But I'd actually rather have the window manager work more like other environments (without using different but…

I use a Magic Trackpad, too, and I wonder why the multi-touch can't be used to simulate chording.

Aside from that, though, I don't understand why I can't separate Acme/Rio from Plan9. I'd love to explore Plan9 more, but a proper 3-button mouse (when one can be found) is $50+, and (as far as I can determine), I can't just login through a terminal.

The UI is, to me, the least interesting aspect...but I can't explore the rest of the system without going through the UI.

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#14

Post by rcarmo »

smazga wrote: post #13
rcarmo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't used a mouse on my desktop (any desktop, really) in over four years - I use Apple's Magic Trackpad to get the same experience and precision I have on my laptop. That said, considering that many more people use laptops these days, mouse chording is somewhat passé and hasn't caught up with the times. But I'd actually rather have the window manager work more like other environments (without using different but…

I use a Magic Trackpad, too, and I wonder why the multi-touch can't be used to simulate chording. Aside from that, though, I don't understand why I can't separate Acme/Rio from Plan9. I'd love to explore Plan9 more, but a proper 3-button mouse (when one can be found) is $50+, and (as far as I can determine), I can't just login through a terminal. The UI is, to me, the least interesting aspect...but I can't explore th…

You can run inferno (which has a similar userland) as a process in Linux, and I have plan9front on a Raspberry Pi that I use as a terminal (with vt and ssh2 to log in to other machines as well as VNC for using a browser remotely).

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#15

Post by smorrow »

reirob wrote: post #3

"Mouse usage is obligatory. You cannot use the acme editor, for instance, without frequently taking your hand off the keyboard." - in my opinion this is a disadvantage and I wonder if this can be improved and if so, in which way.

If it's any consolation to you, 9front types keep on adding more and more fiddly multi-key shortcuts. Eventually it'll be like suckless, where you need the man page to even open a shell. Pretty opaque interface.

Re: taking your hand off the keyboard: I find that once you get to multiple modifiers and/or you go outside of alphanumerics, you've got to take your EYES off the SCREEN, which is worse.

You know, you see people commenting about the mouse, but you never see anyone say "you know, if there's one thing I don't want, it's getting to anywhere on the screen just by looking at it!" But that's what the mouse is. You can point at anything almost as quickly as you can point your eyes at it.

I can't believe I'm commenting (yet again) in another one of these cringey Plan 9 threads, where nobody knows anything and everybody thinks they're an authority... but there you go.

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#16

Post by stonogo »

rcarmo wrote: post #9
stonogo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by "modernization" you mean taking advantage of newer architectures, both the nix and 9front people have produced 64-bit kernels and I think even EFI support. If by "modernization" you mean porting GNOME, then no. Nobody is doing that. Thank God.

Yes, I am well aware of the EFI support. But the status quo in terms of UX is hideous (barely above twm-grade), and it is currently next to impossible to use Plan 9 on a modern laptop with a touchpad. In short, my view is that chording your way through rio using a three-button mouse is about as unfriendly as modern Gnome, and that someone ought to put a stop to that without such tomfoolery as porting another DE to Pl…

This situation speaks more to the prevalance crippled input devices and less to the innate superiority of modern UI trends.

Admittedly I only use plan 9 for text processing and as a terminal to other (both plan 9 and unix) systems, but I cannot imagine any work toward buttonless-touchpad convenience that would do anything but cripple what is currently a powerful interface.

I'm not sure there's anything to be gained from forcing different paradigms to bend to whatever monoculture is currently in power.

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#17

Post by runjake »

reirob wrote: post #3

"Mouse usage is obligatory. You cannot use the acme editor, for instance, without frequently taking your hand off the keyboard." - in my opinion this is a disadvantage and I wonder if this can be improved and if so, in which way.

> in my opinion this is a disadvantage

That is why it is listed under the "Gotchas" heading, rather than "Features".

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#18

Post by reirob »

smorrow wrote: post #15
reirob wrote: post #3

"Mouse usage is obligatory. You cannot use the acme editor, for instance, without frequently taking your hand off the keyboard." - in my opinion this is a disadvantage and I wonder if this can be improved and if so, in which way.

If it's any consolation to you, 9front types keep on adding more and more fiddly multi-key shortcuts. Eventually it'll be like suckless, where you need the man page to even open a shell. Pretty opaque interface. Re: taking your hand off the keyboard: I find that once you get to multiple modifiers and/or you go outside of alphanumerics, you've got to take your EYES off the SCREEN, which is worse. You know, you see peo…

Sorry for having made you comment - it was really not my intention to make people bitter. You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about Plan9 - I have not yet used it and I don't want to be an authority. I just like its architecture and that's the reason that I read the articles that pop up. Who knows maybe one day I'll use it.

Now regarding my opinion: I have nothing against the mouse, I use it a lot - and actually in my case I don't even have to take my hands off the keyboard to use it, it's a Thinkpad trackpoint and I love it. And because it's one of the model from 2 years before it actually has 3 physical buttons. But what I wanted to say, is that I like to use the keyboard if it's possible. I am of the vi league, so if I work in the terminal, in the editor or in REPLs and I have the vi bindings working, it makes me so snappy and happy (and I don't have to take my eyes off the screen - touchtyping ;). That said, I absolutely agree, that using vi key-binding is visually opaque and therefore it must never be the only option, but just an option that maybe could be switched on.

But, please take it as just my opinion. It's not even a complaint. I would love to see Plan9 getting more attention.

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#19

Post by smorrow »

reirob wrote: post #18
smorrow wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's any consolation to you, 9front types keep on adding more and more fiddly multi-key shortcuts. Eventually it'll be like suckless, where you need the man page to even open a shell. Pretty opaque interface. Re: taking your hand off the keyboard: I find that once you get to multiple modifiers and/or you go outside of alphanumerics, you've got to take your EYES off the SCREEN, which is worse. You know, you see peo…

Sorry for having made you comment - it was really not my intention to make people bitter. You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about Plan9 - I have not yet used it and I don't want to be an authority. I just like its architecture and that's the reason that I read the articles that pop up. Who knows maybe one day I'll use it. Now regarding my opinion: I have nothing against the mouse, I use it a lot - a…

> Sorry for having made you comment - it was really not my intention to make people bitter.

I don't think I meant it in that way, but thanks.

> vi

Since we're now talking about editors. If there's people that want to use keyboardy text editors, fine by me. There's definitely a logic to it. But the "control your window manager with vi-like keybindings" crowd: I can't even comprehend what type of mindset chooses this, except some sort of delusional one. If there's one thing that can get me ranting...

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#20

Post by rcarmo »

stonogo wrote: post #16
rcarmo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I am well aware of the EFI support. But the status quo in terms of UX is hideous (barely above twm-grade), and it is currently next to impossible to use Plan 9 on a modern laptop with a touchpad. In short, my view is that chording your way through rio using a three-button mouse is about as unfriendly as modern Gnome, and that someone ought to put a stop to that without such tomfoolery as porting another DE to Pl…

This situation speaks more to the prevalance crippled input devices and less to the innate superiority of modern UI trends. Admittedly I only use plan 9 for text processing and as a terminal to other (both plan 9 and unix) systems, but I cannot imagine any work toward buttonless-touchpad convenience that would do anything but cripple what is currently a powerful interface. I'm not sure there's anything to be gained f…

What you're saying, in a nutshell, is that you based your expressed views solely on your own experience and use cases. That, I think, is what made the Plan9 community tank over the years -- I'll grant that a touchpad is different, but then again I will cheerily admit that my view is that it is vastly more powerful than a three-button mouse.
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