Immigration is about talent, not costs • Hacker News Board

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#201

Post by spydum » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:35 PM UTC

mooreds wrote: post #44

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #2

For "real" technology companies like AeroFS, that use a small fraction of the H-1B quota, it's about talent. For body shops like Infosys, WiPro, Tata, etc that use up the vast majority of the H-1B visas it's absolutely about cost.

Took some digging, but here's a list of top companies with H1B visas for the FY 2013: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2489146/technology-law-... Top 5: * INFOSYS * TATA * COGNIZANT * ACCENTURE * WIPRO

if that took digging, you have not worked in the big corporate enterprisey space. These are the go-to bodyshop guys all the major players outsource to. These bodyshops hire talented H1Bs (from their own network) to get folks on-shore to handle knowledge acquisition, then "knowledge transfer" to the offshore folks for peanuts.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#202

Post by shas3 » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:36 PM UTC

starfishjenga wrote: post #14

If this guy is starved for talent couldn't he just increase what he's willing to pay and steal people from other tech companies? (There are a number of people who would be willing to jump ship for the right #s I'm sure.) This seems to be where BusinessWeek is correct. At the end of the day engineers should be getting paid more.

And Indian H1B workers who match those skills for the high-skill / high-paying jobs will settle for less than industry average?

Also, in the current system, even if he wants to steal people from other tech companies, there is a good chance those people are on H1B, and that it will be exceedingly hard to steal them without immigration problems (particularly if they are, as is likely, to have a green card application in process.)

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#203

Post by avn2109 » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:37 PM UTC

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #154

rayiner wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. has a fixed capacity to absorb immigrants while integrating them into our culture. In many places in the country, immigration is already too much, resulting in insular immigrant communities and tensions between immigrants and everyone else. Those are bad things. The unstated assumption underlying the assertion that "the U.S. has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration" is that culture, and institutions a…

> the U.S. has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration Says who? The permanent ecologically sustainable population of the U.S. is under 200 million. Supporting the current population at the current standard of living involves running down aquifers and top soil and fisheries. We could certainly cram in 600 million at a far lower standard of living. Why should the people favor a reduced lifestyle? Where exactly are…

What about if we build more Manhattans and put our 600 million people there? Maybe it's time to dig some subway tunnels on the Kansas prairie.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#204

Post by skadamat » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:38 PM UTC

jkyle wrote: post #166

angersock wrote: post #31

I can't be the only person from the Midwest who noticed that list of internship rates. Fuck me, I'm getting paid half that per month. WTF.

What you're looking at with those offers is likely a PhD in computer science or engineering who specialized in something those companies want. Those aren't what you think of as internships done by Sophomores or Juniors in college. They're an extended interview of a highly sought after expert in their field. Both of the candidate by the company and vice versa. That's why the offers look more like salaries. Also, those…

Haha they are definitely sophomores and juniors in college. CS undergrads from top 20 CS programs are getting offered that much for summers, I've witnessed these offers from a lot of my friends.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#205

Post by michaelochurch » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:38 PM UTC

teacup50 wrote: post #34

drivingmenuts wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Purely on the informative side: why are these people called "interns" when it looks more like they're straight-up "contractors" or "employees"? Is this just a convenient fiction?

Most of them are worthless; of any given intern class at a first tier technology company (e.g., Apple), only ~1-5% will actually be offered a full time job. Those 1% are worth every penny, but you simply don't know who they are until you give the entire intern class the opportunity to demonstrate their abilities.

Most of them are worthless; of any given intern class at a first tier technology company (e.g., Apple), only ~1-5% will actually be offered a full time job.

I really doubt this number. Rehire rates are an important consideration for college students, and they talk. An offer rate below 50% would be damaging.

That said, a lot of people find better offers elsewhere, but no tech company is going to no-offer 90% of its interns and keep its reputation intact.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#206

Post by dominotw » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:38 PM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

>There's standard, normalized ways immigrants have come to the US for a long time now.

And what are those?

If you are being honest why not just say "We don't want any more immigrants". Because H1B is the only way to immigrate to US. Its great that your parents got a shot a new life and now you want the door to closed.

PS: I am a naturalized US citizen, if it matters.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#207

Post by serve_yay » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:39 PM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

Also, the author of this post is running an early-stage business, where cost-cutting doesn't make any sense. It strikes me as a bit naive to extrapolate from what his business is trying to do, to Amazon or whoever. It strikes me as rather likely that businesses more mature than his absolutely are interested in cutting costs, even if he isn't.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#208

Post by dashboardfront » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:39 PM UTC

UK-AL wrote: post #102

dashboardfront wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always adjust your consumption bundle. If I'm living in a high rent city, I'm more likely to find a friend to share an apartment with or settle for something not that great. This is a drop in utility (though I'd argue living with a friend is a positive for myself), but I also have a lot more money to use on other things, which increases my utility. Spending most of your money on rent when you're pulling somet…

Your average friend is likely to want a close to market price for that room. Relying on friends is not a way to plan an economy. A lot of people won't have friends willing to let them stay.

That's not what I was saying at all, but alright. If you're interested in the topic, look up utility curves, income effect, and substitution effect in a microeconomics textbook. It'll probably have a much better explanation than I can communicate through text (unless I start making graphs, which would be a bit time consuming).

Here's a copy paste of my explanation on reddit though (where this topic also constantly comes up):

Living in the Bay Area results in a higher wage, which increases consumption (income effect), but at the same time the price of housing is much higher as well (to a greater degree than the increase in income). You substitute sq ft with other goods. If you place relatively heavy utility on housing by sq ft in comparison to all other goods, then I guess it's a bad idea to come out here, because you're going to be on a lower indifference curve. Otherwise (and I think most people fall under 'otherwise', which is why they come out here ) its not that bad of an idea, and you'll probably end up on a higher indifference curve.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#209

Post by foldr » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:40 PM UTC

NhanH wrote: post #119

manticore_alpha wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't say it's trivially easy, but with determination it can be done.

I don't necessary disagree with you on this: if there is a will, there is a way. Regardless of how the immigration law is, even if you make it "No immigration at all", someone will find a way to get in. But that's far and far away from "standard and normalized", which implies something is accessible to standard and more average people. The top .5 or 1% (as in aptitude and willpower) will always find ways to get thing…

> if there is a will, there is a way

I'm not so sure about this. I'm a British citizen who's been living in the US for most of the past 7 years (as a student or doing academic jobs), but I can't see any easy way for me to get a job in the tech industry in the US. Perhaps a big company might be willing to sponsor me for an H1B. Apart from that there is just no realistic option that I'm aware of. What other visa could I realistically apply for?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#210

Post by x0x0 » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:40 PM UTC

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #130

x0x0 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no shortage of talent; there's a shortage of talent that wants to earn $100 - $130k (plus 0.2% of an A-round company! Golden paper handcuffs! Whoo!) to live in sf, an area probably more expensive than Manhattan. Without being Manhattan, or having decent public services. Do we have a shortage of talent of the type I just described? Emphatically yes. Does that mean there is in any way a shortage? Emphatically…

It is interesting that one mainly hears this loud whining for more imported skilled labor from the web publishing industry. The mining, drilling, and rail industries don't make any noise that I've heard. They have high wage earners. They are higher "tech" than 95% of IT and web publishing outfits. Why is all this visa agitation coming from Silicon Valley and not from Houston?

tech is full of useful idiots stoked by the idea of cutting their wages, who haven't fully absorbed how duplicitous and exploitative the industry really is. See google, apple, linkedin wage fixing agreements. And a lack of unions.