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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#161

Post by cousin_it »

jseliger wrote: post #101
rayiner wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. has a fixed capacity to absorb immigrants while integrating them into our culture. In many places in the country, immigration is already too much, resulting in insular immigrant communities and tensions between immigrants and everyone else. Those are bad things. The unstated assumption underlying the assertion that "the U.S. has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration" is that culture, and institutions a…

The U.S. has a fixed capacity to absorb immigrants while integrating them into our culture I've heard this said before but never seen any data on it, though similar rationale was used in the Immigration Act of 1924: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924 , which helped condemn millions to death in Europe. Bryan Caplan makes the case for open borders here: http://openborders.info/bryan-caplan/ . Separate…

Bryan Caplan makes strange arguments sometimes. In this pdf [1], he says if you don't want immigrants to vote or receive benefits, then why not just prohibit them from voting or receiving benefits? That would still be more humane than keeping them out of the country altogether, right? He doesn't even mention that it would create an underclass, which is one of the biggest reasons for crime and other social ills.

[1] http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-...

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#162

Post by vonsnowman »

x0x0 wrote: post #65
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #2

For "real" technology companies like AeroFS, that use a small fraction of the H-1B quota, it's about talent. For body shops like Infosys, WiPro, Tata, etc that use up the vast majority of the H-1B visas it's absolutely about cost.

Yuri is wrong. h1b is absolutely about costs -- unless they claim (a somewhat fantastical claim) there is nobody in the US at all who could fit their needs. A claim which is trivially untrue. Those people exist and could be hired. Why isn't Yuri hiring them? Because of the price they demand. In fact, the way you can tell this is bs and it is entirely about price is AeroFS opened a canadian subsidiary! I wonder how mu…

Or, you know, keep the person they've been training for 2 years and that is now the most knowledgeable about some sizable chunks of the product...

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#164

Post by deskamess »

alyandon wrote: post #117
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

>I've worked at multiple companies (managed their websites) -- where we would temporarily post a job description to >appear that it was a fair playing field for local workers -- when in reality that position was definitely, absolutely >going to be filled by a cheaper, exploitable H1B visa position. I worked as a contract developer for over 10 years and this was absolutely the norm for the companies I worked at. It wa…

I agree... (was on H1). The core problem is that the sponsoring company is in control. Control needs to be moved to the candidate (worker). The H1 should not be tied to the employer, but to the candidate, and they should be able to switch employers by registering their new employer with the DHS (HR of the new company and employee act on signing day). H1'ers should be free to move at will and immediately after entering the country (or at most, a 3-4 month wait).

Most of the time the consultancies put H1'ers on the bench waiting for a job... i.e., they over subscribe H1-B's every year. There needs to be an exponential charge to avoid over subscribing tactics... perhaps the app fees double (and keep doubling) for each additional candidate past 2.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#165

Post by brandonl222 »

jarjoura wrote: post #122
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

As a hiring manager, I can promise you that your generalizations are sweeping and full of misplaced emotional verbiage. Since it is my job to hire the best candidate and even though my company gives me access to a world of engineers, I will still try to find the best with the least amount of friction. That means, someone who already lives here and can start as soon as possible with the least amount of demands. Talent…

Do you really think your situation represents the majority of H1B employers?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#166

Post by jkyle »

angersock wrote: post #31

I can't be the only person from the Midwest who noticed that list of internship rates. Fuck me, I'm getting paid half that per month. WTF.

What you're looking at with those offers is likely a PhD in computer science or engineering who specialized in something those companies want. Those aren't what you think of as internships done by Sophomores or Juniors in college. They're an extended interview of a highly sought after expert in their field. Both of the candidate by the company and vice versa.

That's why the offers look more like salaries. Also, those "housing" offers are ridiculous. A 1 bedroom here can cost you 2k/mth easy. A flat, $1,500. I wouldn't be surprised if they're staying in corporate housing and those are just estimates of the value in the internship "package".

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#167

Post by joelaaronseely »

Let's go further. This country was founded on immigrants. This country is powerful because of the wonderful hard-working immigrants who have come to this country and seen opportunity and seized it with both hands and their teeth. It's not the lazy, entitled, molly-coddled, citizens who would rather watch endless episodes of real-world who made this country great (and yes, I, sadly, fall in that category). It is the people who came here with nothing and worked as hard as they could for themselves and their families who keep reinventing this country. We should welcome as many hard-working immigrants into this country as we can.

From an economic perspective it makes sense, too. My wife came with her family from Vietnam in 1991. They were given 1 year of public assitance of $1100 per month. There were 11 people living in a rented house that didn't speak a word of English. Since that time they have grown up, gone to college (and paid for it through working side-jobs), become nurses, optometrists, and doctors. The return the US is getting on their pitiful $13K investment 20 years ago is an annuity worth $Millions in taxes alone! Sign me up for that kind of investment!

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#168

Post by geebee »

wrexsoule wrote: post #96
michaelochurch wrote: post #29

It's about a mix of things. First of all, intern salaries are typically set at ~90-100 percent of full-time salary (but without bonus or equity). So these people who are freaking out about intern salaries are missing the point. They assume that if "even an intern" makes $8,000 per month, that every full-time employee makes $200k+. No, it's not like that. It's like this: we properly pay interns with an entry-level sal…

> The H1-B program keeps the worker captive Let's be serious a few minutes, no H1-B worker is held captive at all. I've been on H1-B for 4 years and still on it, and have changed employer twice with no issues. The only case you can make is that if a H1-B is applying for a Green Card then he can have to wait a while before moving, but it's nothing to do with H1-B itself.

I agree that it's a bit of a myth that you "can't" change jobs on an H1B. You have pointed out that there are obstacles, such as a green card waiting list. While technically this isn't related to the H1B, I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with it if a very high number of H1B holders are counting on employer sponsorship for green cards.

To me, though, there is a bigger issue. How far from your original job title did you drift when you changed jobs? The H1B could be seen not so much as a way of forcing people to remain with one company as it is a way of forcing people to work the kind of jobs silicon valley employers want them to work. There are no restrictions on your employment - you can be a programmer here, there, or even over there!

The reason I think this matters is that I believe that programmers are actually underpaid relative to what highly educated and skilled people can make in other segments of the economy. Keep in mind, in SF, application developers only earn a bit more than dental hygienists. Suppose you decided, at age 25, that you'd prefer to do dental hygiene, since you were concerned about possible age related employment issues. Would you be allowed to do that as an H1B holder? Even if you are (my guess is that a dental hygienist would count as a skilled position worthy of the visa), what about going back to school? Could you find dentist to sponsor your visa?

To me, there's a reason for the "shortage" of programmers - the job isn't as great as employers claim it is, salaries and career prospects aren't good enough to lure these talented people away from other fields. To fix this, as a crutch, we've essentially created a system of immigration where people are allowed to come to the US provided they work as employee programmers for a period of time, after which many career paths may be closed to them or harder to pursue.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#169

Post by ianlevesque »

DigitalSea wrote: post #106

The experience for getting a working visa in the US is absolutely atrocious, and let me preface this with the fact I am Australian and Australia offers an E3 visa which allows you to work in the US indefinitely for the sponsoring company. It doesn't have the same issues as a H1-B visa (lottery, restrictions on when you can apply), but offers just as much flexibility and power. I am currently a remote worker for a US…

Really it just sounds like they should extend your remote position to full-time employee status. The modern workforce extends beyond a single office with warm bodies in seats.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#170

Post by falcolas »

illumen wrote: post #151
manticore_alpha wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't name names. I can tell you one was the kind of company you're probably thinking about, and the other was a publicly-traded (now) supply chain company.

If you can't provide any evidence, you're making it up.

Or, he fears blacklisting in what is a closed market. The number of employees who have identical work histories is pretty slim; naming 2-3 of them would be very identifying.

I've seen this (job openings explicitly tailored for new or exisiting H1B employees) quite a bit myself, and I too am unwilling to "name names" for the same reason.

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