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CoreOS is building a container runtime, Rocket

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Re: CoreOS is building a container runtime, Rocket

#171
post #68
post #39

The post mentions not having a daemon running as root, but then you have to run `rkt` as root anyway. Won't this just mean that instead of having a single implementation of a Rocket daemon running as root, there is now one custom one every time it needs to be automated? It's great to see this problem broken up into reusable pieces though. It totally makes sense to function without a daemon, especially out of the box.

There actually is a significant difference between having 'rkt' as a setuid-root process that's invoked from the command line, and having a docker server always running waiting for commands. There are more ways for a potential attacker to get at the server. So, Rocket at least looks like they're trying to shrink the attack surface.

> There actually is a significant difference between having 'rkt' as a setuid-root process that's invoked from the command line, and having a docker server always running waiting for commands. There are more ways for a potential attacker to get at the server.

Wrong. With a server, the only thing an attacker has control over is its input. With a setuid-root binary, they still have control over its input, but they also have control over the entire environment under which it executes, including many things that developers generally assume an attacker can't control. Setuid binaries are incredibly scary from a security perspective and much harder to get right than servers.

Re: CoreOS is building a container runtime, Rocket

#172
post #87

Hi, I created Docker. I have exactly 3 things to say: 1) Competition is always good. Lxc brought competition to openvz and vserver. Docker brought competition to lxc. And now tools like lxd, rocket and nspawn are bringing competition to Docker. In response Docker is forced to up its game and earn its right to be the dominant tool. This is a good thing. 2) "disappointed" doesn't even begin to describe how I feel about…

If you were trying to make sure as many people as possible paid attention to Rocket as a serious alternative to Docker, which is the current de facto standard Linux containerization scheme, well done.

An article spreading fud on Docker's philosophy is at the top of HN. I added a comment describing the actual Docker philosophy.

Re: CoreOS is building a container runtime, Rocket

#173
post #140
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My +1 goes to Kelsey Hightower. He posted on 7 Nov some worries which many Docker users and contributors, already had since the past year, when you dropped off LXC containers, instead of working together with https://linuxcontainers.org/ project to get a better code. That seems already a strategic business decision to decouple your "product value" from his mother and generator: LXC. IMO, Docker's 'new' direction comp…

> IMO, Docker's 'new' direction completely ignored the tremendous amount of support they had from the sysadmin and devops communities. Kind of weird that this line from your comment is identical to a line in this comment from another user: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8682864

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Re: CoreOS is building a container runtime, Rocket

#174
post #140
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My +1 goes to Kelsey Hightower. He posted on 7 Nov some worries which many Docker users and contributors, already had since the past year, when you dropped off LXC containers, instead of working together with https://linuxcontainers.org/ project to get a better code. That seems already a strategic business decision to decouple your "product value" from his mother and generator: LXC. IMO, Docker's 'new' direction comp…

> IMO, Docker's 'new' direction completely ignored the tremendous amount of support they had from the sysadmin and devops communities. Kind of weird that this line from your comment is identical to a line in this comment from another user: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8682864

Infact I just copy & past that ..., not the least, I didn't found better words to express that feeling, which I hope it will be wrong honestly because I'm on board with Docker since the early days and I'd like to see it more community driven that private business driven.

Re: CoreOS is building a container runtime, Rocket

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Docker's 'new' direction is to direct its attention towards solving the orchestration and management problems involved in actually running infrastructure on Docker. A number of third parties had begun work on various (sometimes proprietary) orchestration and management systems for creating a reliable/scalable/easily manageable cluster with Docker as a building block. CoreOS is one. But Docker is pushing towards an of…

I think it is a great stand for Docker. Very recently (IMHO in 1.3), it merged the functionality of Fig into Docker. I think Docker orchestration and coreos can coexist - if I had to use COREOS to use the goodness of Docker, then systemd-nspawn would come and eat Docker's lunch. I wish that Docker bless one of Ansible/Chef as the official orchestration base and take it forward. I really don't want to earn something D…

Fig functionality was not merged into Docker's 1.3 release.

Ansible/Chef orchestration IMHO solves a very different problem than container orchestration.

Re: CoreOS is building a container runtime, Rocket

#176
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welp, I'm putting "been snarked by founder of Docker" on my CV.

I guess so - sorry ;) I hope you can understand that it's frustrating when, after hard work pitching an API to dozens of ecosystem players, spending weeks trying to wrangle a working implementation which makes as many of them as happy as possible, without compromising integrity of design - after all that, in the end, all it takes is one unhappy camper to write a blog post and that immediately tramples everything else…

Concerning Weave that's quite a good news, the weave point of view for docker networking is good and can be easily setup in many (not all of them of course) infrastructure.

Re: CoreOS is building a container runtime, Rocket

#177
post #87

Hi, I created Docker. I have exactly 3 things to say: 1) Competition is always good. Lxc brought competition to openvz and vserver. Docker brought competition to lxc. And now tools like lxd, rocket and nspawn are bringing competition to Docker. In response Docker is forced to up its game and earn its right to be the dominant tool. This is a good thing. 2) "disappointed" doesn't even begin to describe how I feel about…

I like how 'exactly 3 things' turned into two lists, one with 13 items :)

Don't be unfair, clearly the 2nd list is nested :)

Re: CoreOS is building a container runtime, Rocket

#178
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, regardless of the technical sides of anything, I'm sure this is not a fun day for you. I think you're handling the situation terribly, but still, not a fun day. Anyway, docker is awesome, and thanks for building it. I know it's made my devops life a lot more enjoyable of late.

I guess I am. PR has never been my thing. I'll get back to hacking, after all it's the reason we do all this: building cool things.

Don't do PR, just build the better thing.

No malice, just a friendly tip :)

Re: CoreOS is building a container runtime, Rocket

#179
post #87

Hi, I created Docker. I have exactly 3 things to say: 1) Competition is always good. Lxc brought competition to openvz and vserver. Docker brought competition to lxc. And now tools like lxd, rocket and nspawn are bringing competition to Docker. In response Docker is forced to up its game and earn its right to be the dominant tool. This is a good thing. 2) "disappointed" doesn't even begin to describe how I feel about…

Ops (particularly in Enterprise) doesn't want batteries included by default. Principle #3 and #5 are incompatible IMO. Do one thing and do it well...

Seems to me that post-Docker 1.2, the Docker team has taken Ops concerns much less seriously and is focused almost exclusively on iterating Dev-friendly features.

Hope things change.

Re: CoreOS is building a container runtime, Rocket

#180
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were trying to make sure as many people as possible paid attention to Rocket as a serious alternative to Docker, which is the current de facto standard Linux containerization scheme, well done.

An article spreading fud on Docker's philosophy is at the top of HN. I added a comment describing the actual Docker philosophy.

[deleted]
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