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A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

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Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#3

Post by reirob »

"Mouse usage is obligatory. You cannot use the acme editor, for instance, without frequently taking your hand off the keyboard." - in my opinion this is a disadvantage and I wonder if this can be improved and if so, in which way.

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#5

Post by vezzy-fnord »

reirob wrote: post #3

"Mouse usage is obligatory. You cannot use the acme editor, for instance, without frequently taking your hand off the keyboard." - in my opinion this is a disadvantage and I wonder if this can be improved and if so, in which way.

Complaining about mouse chording in Plan 9 is one of those bikeshed arguments that people love to raise all the time.

No, you can't "improve" on it without making it something that isn't Acme.

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#6

Post by e12e »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #5
reirob wrote: post #3

"Mouse usage is obligatory. You cannot use the acme editor, for instance, without frequently taking your hand off the keyboard." - in my opinion this is a disadvantage and I wonder if this can be improved and if so, in which way.

Complaining about mouse chording in Plan 9 is one of those bikeshed arguments that people love to raise all the time. No, you can't "improve" on it without making it something that isn't Acme.

I agree with your sentiment - but at the same time I've been thinking a bit about this (not-mouse, not keyboard input - and text editing). I think that multi-touch screens might be a good-ish fit for something ACME-like (note: I'm not an ACME user). One-finger to select, two-to (do whatever it is that typically does), three for action etc. Two-finger hold+third-finger-tap. That kind of thing.

My main motivation is that I've developed RSS pretty early, and while I can function with a keyboard, using the mouse more than just a little bit, will quickly trigger a fall-back.

Add to that, the idea of reducing ten digits to a single (or three) buttons, doesn't strike me as optimal -- only easy (considering a serial interface, simple hardware).

That said, efficient, non-strain inducing touch interfaces pretty much dictate the same kind of restrictions that pen-"input" (drawing) does: a drafting table/slanted screen layout -- not vertical screen, horizontal keyboard.

And I do think that ACME has some valuable ideas that could help make multi-touch work for efficient text (and other) editing.

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#7

Post by stonogo »

rcarmo wrote: post #2

Even though I glance at plan9front now and then, I wonder if there is someone else (anyone?) working on modernizing Plan9 somewhat.

If by "modernization" you mean taking advantage of newer architectures, both the nix and 9front people have produced 64-bit kernels and I think even EFI support.

If by "modernization" you mean porting GNOME, then no. Nobody is doing that. Thank God.

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#8

Post by stonogo »

e12e wrote: post #6
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complaining about mouse chording in Plan 9 is one of those bikeshed arguments that people love to raise all the time. No, you can't "improve" on it without making it something that isn't Acme.

I agree with your sentiment - but at the same time I've been thinking a bit about this (not-mouse, not keyboard input - and text editing). I think that multi-touch screens might be a good-ish fit for something ACME-like (note: I'm not an ACME user). One-finger to select, two-to (do whatever it is that typically does), three for action etc. Two-finger hold+third-finger-tap. That kind of thing. My main motivation is th…

I enjoy how many people speculate about "improving" Acme's and Rio's interface without a clear understanding of what that interface entails.

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#9

Post by rcarmo »

stonogo wrote: post #7
rcarmo wrote: post #2

Even though I glance at plan9front now and then, I wonder if there is someone else (anyone?) working on modernizing Plan9 somewhat.

If by "modernization" you mean taking advantage of newer architectures, both the nix and 9front people have produced 64-bit kernels and I think even EFI support. If by "modernization" you mean porting GNOME, then no. Nobody is doing that. Thank God.

Yes, I am well aware of the EFI support. But the status quo in terms of UX is hideous (barely above twm-grade), and it is currently next to impossible to use Plan 9 on a modern laptop with a touchpad.

In short, my view is that chording your way through rio using a three-button mouse is about as unfriendly as modern Gnome, and that someone ought to put a stop to that without such tomfoolery as porting another DE to Plan9.

Technological modernization won't win Plan9 new supporters, whereas UX modernization will, at worst, make it easier to use.

Edited to add: I have Acme running via plan9ports on the Mac, and even the simple addition of Cmd+C/V/etc. for copy/paste made a world of difference. I am positively thrilled with the notion of actually using it someday without constant fiddling with the Option key and my touchpad.

Re: A Plan 9 Newbie's Guide (2008) [pdf]

#10

Post by e12e »

stonogo wrote: post #8
e12e wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your sentiment - but at the same time I've been thinking a bit about this (not-mouse, not keyboard input - and text editing). I think that multi-touch screens might be a good-ish fit for something ACME-like (note: I'm not an ACME user). One-finger to select, two-to (do whatever it is that typically does), three for action etc. Two-finger hold+third-finger-tap. That kind of thing. My main motivation is th…

I enjoy how many people speculate about "improving" Acme's and Rio's interface without a clear understanding of what that interface entails.

If it entails repetitive strain syndrome, I'll pass.

As I understand it it is oriented around three buttons -- I suggest that that might be achieved with multi-touch (I can see how it might be difficult to distinguish "hold-one press two", and "hold-one press three" -- but I don't think it is insurmountable to achieve a lot with proper multi-touch and some smarts).

Are you saying my assumption is wrong?

(My only idea of ACME (apart from starting it and looking around casually) is Russ Cox' "Tour of ACME"-video posted to HN a while back https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533156 , and the "ACME paper": http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.pdf refereed to by Rob Pike in a /. interview: http://beta.slashdot.org/story/50858).

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