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Don't panic and keep forking Debian

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Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#131
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem like someone who's used a variety of init systems, so I have some questions: 1. Why is systemd considered "un-unix"? 2. Why is sysv considered to "follow unix"? 3. Can you provide or point to some explanations on the ideologies that motivate the difference of opinions regarding sysv/systemd? 4. Really, can someone provide some context and history for all this?

With the caveat that I haven't kept up closely with systemd 1. It is attempting to unify a bunch of previously disconnected functionality into a single program. Typically unix is composed of small single-purpose utilities that perform a single function, rather than a giant monolithic blob of code (with obvious exceptions, like emacs). 2. Partially because it has been around for so long and has so much history, and pa…

I was one of those burned by Pulseaudio and the way Lenart basically dumped the project as soon as it got enough traction and before it was stable or truly functional. The design was, as you point out, very reminiscent of systemd - one giant, poorly documented and not very well tested audio system was supposed to replace all other parts of the Linux audio stack (above the kernel drivers) and give us near-realtime performance and a lot of fancy device management and dynamic control. Short form: it didn't until he had already moved on.

He still trots that disaster out as proof of his fitness to lead, so it's hard for me to trust that systemd is both well-designed and likely to not be abandoned by him for his next shiny pursuit of Windows. The involvement of other devs helps, but not enough to convince me systemd is worth getting near. Two years of audio fail made a good object lesson for me about Lenart's professionalism and dedication.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#132
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there are other objections from people who think systemd is too big in scope or too controlling or focussed on one technology or another or... some kind of conspiratorial trap or something ( http://boycottsystemd.org ). I think these arguments are a little hyperbolic since systemd isn't actually a single monolithic system and is really an overarching project to update a lot of major system utilities. Well, with r…

Sadly it drags the whole debate into an argument over semantics. Yes, it is not monolithic in the sense of one binary running everything. But at the same time everything ties back to systemd running as init. This in effect makes everything under the systemd umbrella tightly coupled. Can i run journald on its own, or logind, or resolved, networkd? As long as the answer is no, they mays well be one big blob. And it is…

> As long as the answer is no, they mays well be one big blob.

So to you there is no difference between sendmail and postfix, they are both equally monolithic?

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly it drags the whole debate into an argument over semantics. Yes, it is not monolithic in the sense of one binary running everything. But at the same time everything ties back to systemd running as init. This in effect makes everything under the systemd umbrella tightly coupled. Can i run journald on its own, or logind, or resolved, networkd? As long as the answer is no, they mays well be one big blob. And it is…

> As long as the answer is no, they mays well be one big blob. So to you there is no difference between sendmail and postfix, they are both equally monolithic?

If i just need a small portion but has to download and run more, then yes.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#134
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I'm not saying modern Windows is fault free. It may have an inconvenient user interface for some things, it may not always do the thing you want it to etc. but it never fails to boot, everything but Apple hardware runs it flawlessly and it has a massive third-party software selection. For me, though, Ubuntu's user interface is just so much more convenient for programming and the other things I do that I manage…

Just to toss something else into the mix...:) Honestly,I really really dislike Apple...esp the fanboy culture, mythology of Steve Jobs (and the culture which means everyone in Starbucks knows him and not Norman Borlaug), the weird shops, the overpriced products and ripoff margins, lack of choice and individually vs Android...for years I've been known as the guy who slags off Apple etc etc BUUUUUTTTTTT - and this migh…

ASUS is basically the highest quality you'll get with consumer prices. Acer is among the worst - they're like HP. You can't compare the two.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#135
post #13

I'm for sure not feeling the love for systemd, it seems un-UNIX and a solution looking for a problem, and change for the sake of change. That said, not so big on the idea about a fork, I'd rather see debian do the normal debian thing, and support both things, maximizing freedom. That said, if that can't happen, a fork is inevitable - for the love of god pick a better name.

> it seems un-UNIX and a solution looking for a problem

Go figure that it was written by one of the same dudes responsible for Pulse Audio, which was possibly the worst thing about most Linux distributions, up until now.

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