Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Don't panic and keep forking Debian

lists.dyne.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 135 posts

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#81

Post by secfirstmd »

tormeh wrote: post #63
secfirstmd wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I possibly would have agreed with you up until XP, when it was very very buggy and crash prone, but after that for the average user I really doubt that is the case. Thought I think we can agree to disagree depending on our respective experiences.

This. I'm not saying modern Windows is fault free. It may have an inconvenient user interface for some things, it may not always do the thing you want it to etc. but it never fails to boot, everything but Apple hardware runs it flawlessly and it has a massive third-party software selection. For me, though, Ubuntu's user interface is just so much more convenient for programming and the other things I do that I manage…

Just to toss something else into the mix...:)

Honestly,I really really dislike Apple...esp the fanboy culture, mythology of Steve Jobs (and the culture which means everyone in Starbucks knows him and not Norman Borlaug), the weird shops, the overpriced products and ripoff margins, lack of choice and individually vs Android...for years I've been known as the guy who slags off Apple etc etc

BUUUUUTTTTTT - and this might be relevant to Windows survivability in the future.

Having spent nearly a week humming and thinking, comparing every type of new business laptop (powerful, reliable etc) at any price to run as my next Windows machine, I can't really find any...Thinkpad has seemed to have gone to pieces, DELL I have only ever had bad experiences with, ASUS/ACER meh etc...

I quite literally am close to swallowing my pride (awaits incoming from friends who I slagged off over the years) and buying a MacBook and putting Windows on it.

Maybe it's just me, but as Windows (except for the Win 8 bloaty crap) software has gotten better, the hardware at the moment seems to be getting worse.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#82

Post by marcosdumay »

Aloha wrote: post #13

I'm for sure not feeling the love for systemd, it seems un-UNIX and a solution looking for a problem, and change for the sake of change. That said, not so big on the idea about a fork, I'd rather see debian do the normal debian thing, and support both things, maximizing freedom. That said, if that can't happen, a fork is inevitable - for the love of god pick a better name.

The problem is that systemd is making it impossible to create a system where you can use either it, or another init. A fork may be the only way to avoid it, and it's quite probable that this fork will lose GNOME in a few years.

I'm still hooting for a EGCC kind of resolution... but the way more likely outcome is that systemd is here to stay.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#83

Post by marcosdumay »

derekp7 wrote: post #29
zxcdw wrote: post #23

Can someone TL;DR the problem with systemd?

Many people complaining about it is that it doesn't follow the Unix philosophy. I think that it's not so much that systemd is un-UNIX like (after all, it could be argued that X-windows is un-UNIX like too). I think the problem that people are having with it is that it is a cathedral that is getting erected right in the middle of their bazaar. (personally, I don't mind systemd, but I also didn't mind SysV, or BSD init…

Also, it's a badly built cathedral, that most people see that will have problems in the future.

And it's being built by a group of people with a history of pushing badly built catedrals onto Linux, that turn into ruins even before completion, and have to be maintained because people get used to praying there.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#84

Post by SwellJoe »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #61
SwellJoe wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, yet, it dominates the tablet and mobile environment, which is already more important than the desktop market ever was. Funny how that works.

Linux doesn't dominate the mobile environment. A very specific port of it, by Google, does. Given that it's Google , that's hardly a compelling argument. They could've made Windows NT dominant if they'd so desired.

The comment I was replying to suggested that the diversity (the forks) of Linux were the reason Linux would never win the desktop. I made my comment to make two assertions: First, that the desktop is irrelevant today because more people use phones and tablets, and the spread will continue to grow. Second, that the forkability of Linux made it possible for Android to exist...and, to practically destroy every other competitor for the phone and tablet (except Apple, but Android has a very comfortable, and growing, lead over Apple).

And, when Google started down the Android path, they weren't the Google we know today. It was not a foregone conclusion, and had they chosen a tech which they couldn't control completely, I can't imagine how it could have worked out the way it has. Microsoft couldn't make Windows dominate on the phone/tablet, despite devoting plenty of resources to the task, I'm sure Google couldn't have (given that anybody that buys from Microsoft plays to Microsoft's tune or they don't play at all).

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#85

Post by zanny »

freshhawk wrote: post #24
eloff wrote: post #5

The same freedom that leads to all the many, many flavors of linux gives a great diversity of ideas. The downside is it fragments the finite development efforts of the contributors to the point where it becomes difficult to compete with the wider marketplace. I wonder sometimes if it were possible for everyone to contribute to one linux desktop if the situation would be different today. As it stands, after nearly thr…

"becomes difficult to compete with the wider marketplace" Seems like Linux has been competing just fine, but I take it you mean "a desktop linux that appeals to windows/osx users by being similar to them so the learning curve is small". That seems to more be about a lack of effort and manpower, not because people are pulling in different directions but more that the people who would actually build that stuff don't wa…

> "a desktop linux that appeals to windows/osx users by being similar to them so the learning curve is small".

Isn't that what Zorin is / is meant to be?

http://zorin-os.com/

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#86

Post by SwellJoe »

esoterae wrote: post #66
SwellJoe wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter; there are literally more phones and tablets than there are desktop/laptop computers. Desktop/laptop is irrelevant in the future. Chromebook and hybrid tablets are slowly eating into the "laptop" market. Many people will never buy a laptop because their tablet or phone does what they need. I know a lot of people who go weeks between opening their computer, but live on their phone and tablet. Desktop…

I take issue with your hypothesis. Tablets and chromebooks have already been around for several years. Why do I still use a desktop for work? Why don't I just ssh everywhere from my eyepad? Because they suck at making me productive. Desktops and actual laptops are not going anywhere, because they run fully featured OSs that people can contribute to, not some nasty walled garden of corporate shrink-wrapped ToS turds a…

Why do I still use a desktop for work?

Please re-read my comment; I've already conceded the workplace will remain a desktop/laptop domain for some time, and that I can't predict when that will change, and for the reasons I mentioned. And, as I said, I don't know how the workplace will play out on the desktop and laptop. I bet it will gradually show declining power for Microsoft and increasing market for Apple and various Linux variants (for different reasons).

So, I don't disagree with you. Desktops and laptops will stick around for a long time in some segments, including the workplace. I don't know how long that will last, possibly decades more. But, it doesn't matter; the desktop/laptop is already less important than the phone/table...and Linux won that market. It effectively won "Desktop 2.0".

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#87

Post by x0x0 »

jqm wrote: post #33
secfirstmd wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly why Linux will never dominate the Desktop environment by the average user. You basically can't use Linux without at some time going to the cmd line to fix some dam configuration or driver problem.

I can't remember the last time I had to fix a driver problem on Linux. My GF, who is not very computer savvy, has been using Mint for years at home and at work. Unfortunately, there were no command line configurations needed even once to set it up. What a disappointment. Ah well, I personally use Slackware so I'll get my jollies there I suppose.... Granted, I did have to go by GF's work at one point and install a pri…

screwing with command line nonsense to make wifi and audio work reliably on my laptop isn't learning, it's technical masturbation. I want to use my computer to do actual work, not make-work.

This was within the last 12 months on ubuntu and a lenovo laptop, btw.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#88

Post by zanny »

secfirstmd wrote: post #22
SwellJoe wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, yet, it dominates the tablet and mobile environment, which is already more important than the desktop market ever was. Funny how that works.

I know exactly what you mean. But we both know these are very different things. For most people, their tablet and phone works absolutely seemlessly, with drivers, apps, downloads etc just working they way they want them to. It just never works that way on the Desktop unfort. I know loads of "average" people who have tried to use MINT/Ubuntu but eventually a big chunk end up reaching for Redmond after they spend too l…

> after they spend too long looking at StackExchange trying to figure something out.

Why are they on Stack Exchange? If they are installing a Linux distro on a Windows computer, then of course you will have an unpleasant experience. If you want to use Ubuntu the right way without having to butt heads with anything, you buy a system from zareason / thinkpenguin / system76.

You can / will run into the same "searching the Internet" for problems installing Windows on your custom built gaming rig. Driver bugs, config issues, etc. Except for those you will end up digging through yahoo answers or windows help with even more misinformation and bloat.

In the end fundamentally it is not a problem with the Linux desktop. You can use a terminal on Windows as well, but you don't expect to because you bought a Windows computer and expect it to work. The same expectation should be had of prebuilt Ubuntu systems, and I think nowadays it lives up to expectation in my experience.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#89

Post by zanny »

tormeh wrote: post #63
secfirstmd wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I possibly would have agreed with you up until XP, when it was very very buggy and crash prone, but after that for the average user I really doubt that is the case. Thought I think we can agree to disagree depending on our respective experiences.

This. I'm not saying modern Windows is fault free. It may have an inconvenient user interface for some things, it may not always do the thing you want it to etc. but it never fails to boot, everything but Apple hardware runs it flawlessly and it has a massive third-party software selection. For me, though, Ubuntu's user interface is just so much more convenient for programming and the other things I do that I manage…

> but it never fails to boot,

Except when it does. I have a friend who got a virus that deleted the Windows bootloader / ntldr from C:, but hes not as technically literate and lives two states away.

Nothing can fix it. He does not have the technical wherewithal to remove the drive and recover files, there is no way to rewrite those specific files without reformatting the disk, and if the Windows install CD does not fix it (and it did not) you have no resources to try to resolve it.

With Linux, he would have had a live USB on hand, and if it failed to boot he could have reinstalled over his root partition and have all his personal files preserved while effectively resetting the environment.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#90

Post by johnny22 »

cpncrunch wrote: post #74
GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm concerned about having to learn a completely new way of doing things." That's just a fact of life in this industry tho.

Yes, of course. I occasionally learn a new language (or develop one), and I'm regularly using new APIs. However this completely changes everything about managing servers, for no compelling reason. It will create a large amount of hassle for no significant benefit.

No compelling reason? you should probably read the docs a bit more. If you don't have any philosophical concerns with systemd, then you will find a lot to love there.
Post reply on HN