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Don't panic and keep forking Debian

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Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#31

Post by secfirstmd »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #26
seccess wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The amount of time and effort I spent wasted on package incompatibilities, instabilities, and debugging strange hardware/driver related issues isn't worth it." Doesn't this assume that this cost for commercial OSes is zero? In my experience, that hasn't been the case (as an OSX user, haven't used Windows for software development in a long time).

The cost isn't zero, but it's proportional to how many other people are likely to have encountered the same pain point. If you run a desktop OS with 5% of Windows' market share, you're going to have more trouble finding help (or at least sympathy) when things go south. Also, as an ISV or IHV, if your app or device fails to work with Windows, it's a DEFCON-1 emergency. If it fails to work with one of 5,000 random obsc…

That would make for an interesting whitepaper by someone. A country by country or regional calculation of the costs of implementing open source.

As an open source fan but also someone who has been burned by the hidden costs of implementing it in certain emerging market regions (extensive training, time, lack of people to fix it when it goes wrong, incompatibilities etc etc vs Windows environment with a wider base of support and usage), I would find this very interesting.

I think things often look different in London or SF but the idea of "free software" in poorer parts of the world is often a false one.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#32

Post by relate »

freshhawk wrote: post #24
eloff wrote: post #5

The same freedom that leads to all the many, many flavors of linux gives a great diversity of ideas. The downside is it fragments the finite development efforts of the contributors to the point where it becomes difficult to compete with the wider marketplace. I wonder sometimes if it were possible for everyone to contribute to one linux desktop if the situation would be different today. As it stands, after nearly thr…

"becomes difficult to compete with the wider marketplace" Seems like Linux has been competing just fine, but I take it you mean "a desktop linux that appeals to windows/osx users by being similar to them so the learning curve is small". That seems to more be about a lack of effort and manpower, not because people are pulling in different directions but more that the people who would actually build that stuff don't wa…

"Because non-technical/non-contributing users are nothing but a drain to FOSS projects."

except that the size of the userbase drives companies to port their products to the platform.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#33

Post by jqm »

secfirstmd wrote: post #14
eloff wrote: post #5

The same freedom that leads to all the many, many flavors of linux gives a great diversity of ideas. The downside is it fragments the finite development efforts of the contributors to the point where it becomes difficult to compete with the wider marketplace. I wonder sometimes if it were possible for everyone to contribute to one linux desktop if the situation would be different today. As it stands, after nearly thr…

Exactly why Linux will never dominate the Desktop environment by the average user. You basically can't use Linux without at some time going to the cmd line to fix some dam configuration or driver problem.

I can't remember the last time I had to fix a driver problem on Linux.

My GF, who is not very computer savvy, has been using Mint for years at home and at work. Unfortunately, there were no command line configurations needed even once to set it up. What a disappointment. Ah well, I personally use Slackware so I'll get my jollies there I suppose....

Granted, I did have to go by GF's work at one point and install a printer but you know what? I've spent a lot less time there than I used to as her Windows systems (she and an assistant now both use Mint) regularly got virus or gunked up and slowed to a crawl...

Linux on the desktop has actually been much easier and reduced my honeydo workload considerably. Fact.

That aside, I have to scratch my head and wonder about people who claim to have so many of these types of problems. Tech people too. People who should be eager to embrace and learn powerful command line invocations and the control this learning brings....

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#34

Post by SwellJoe »

secfirstmd wrote: post #22
SwellJoe wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, yet, it dominates the tablet and mobile environment, which is already more important than the desktop market ever was. Funny how that works.

I know exactly what you mean. But we both know these are very different things. For most people, their tablet and phone works absolutely seemlessly, with drivers, apps, downloads etc just working they way they want them to. It just never works that way on the Desktop unfort. I know loads of "average" people who have tried to use MINT/Ubuntu but eventually a big chunk end up reaching for Redmond after they spend too l…

It doesn't matter; there are literally more phones and tablets than there are desktop/laptop computers. Desktop/laptop is irrelevant in the future.

Chromebook and hybrid tablets are slowly eating into the "laptop" market. Many people will never buy a laptop because their tablet or phone does what they need. I know a lot of people who go weeks between opening their computer, but live on their phone and tablet. Desktop and laptop will be a thing people use at work for a long while, and it'll probably still be ruled by Windows. Creatives and developers will have beefy computers, and they'll probably still be running Windows and Mac OS X predominantly (though I use Fedora, and have never really worked on anything other than a Linux system). For now. I can't predict what will happen on that front, but phones and tablets are encroaching on so many fronts I never would have predicted (I just bought my first tablet last week, and thought they were ridiculous for years even after they'd started taking off).

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#37

Post by krylon »

secfirstmd wrote: post #14
eloff wrote: post #5

The same freedom that leads to all the many, many flavors of linux gives a great diversity of ideas. The downside is it fragments the finite development efforts of the contributors to the point where it becomes difficult to compete with the wider marketplace. I wonder sometimes if it were possible for everyone to contribute to one linux desktop if the situation would be different today. As it stands, after nearly thr…

Exactly why Linux will never dominate the Desktop environment by the average user. You basically can't use Linux without at some time going to the cmd line to fix some dam configuration or driver problem.

As if that was different on Windows. Windows only works smoothly until it does not, and then you inevitably have to invoke some command-line tool you never heard of before and won't find any documentation for, or you have to edit some arcane registry key.

Most people I know who use Windows at home either call "that guy" they know who knows his way around a computer, or they just reinstall their system (which is not such a bad idea, really, just very inconvenient).

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#38

Post by theophrastus »

joemaller1 wrote: post #36

How is it pronounced? DEV-on? de-VWAN? (like Juan) dev-oo-ahn?

The originators direct english speakers to pronounce the name as "dev-one". but, hey, i've heard a lot of different pronunciations of 'linux' and even 'debian' over the years, so what ever floats yer penguin.

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#39

Post by uselessdguy »

lelandbatey wrote: post #25
Aloha wrote: post #13

I'm for sure not feeling the love for systemd, it seems un-UNIX and a solution looking for a problem, and change for the sake of change. That said, not so big on the idea about a fork, I'd rather see debian do the normal debian thing, and support both things, maximizing freedom. That said, if that can't happen, a fork is inevitable - for the love of god pick a better name.

You seem like someone who's used a variety of init systems, so I have some questions: 1. Why is systemd considered "un-unix"? 2. Why is sysv considered to "follow unix"? 3. Can you provide or point to some explanations on the ideologies that motivate the difference of opinions regarding sysv/systemd? 4. Really, can someone provide some context and history for all this?

I don't think anyone really considers sysvinit to "follow Unix". In fact, I'd say sysvinit is more of a historical accident than anything. An actual example of a service manager that follows the Unix philosophy would probably be daemontools and its derivatives (s6, perp, nosh, daemontools-encore and runit).

Re: Don't panic and keep forking Debian

#40

Post by krylon »

jqm wrote: post #33
secfirstmd wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly why Linux will never dominate the Desktop environment by the average user. You basically can't use Linux without at some time going to the cmd line to fix some dam configuration or driver problem.

I can't remember the last time I had to fix a driver problem on Linux. My GF, who is not very computer savvy, has been using Mint for years at home and at work. Unfortunately, there were no command line configurations needed even once to set it up. What a disappointment. Ah well, I personally use Slackware so I'll get my jollies there I suppose.... Granted, I did have to go by GF's work at one point and install a pri…

I remember, ten years ago I had to compile the kernel module for my sound card manually, because it was not part of the mainline kernel. shrug

Since then, my experience with Linux' driver support has been very smooth, as well, any a lot smoother than stuff I've seen on Windows. Getting a printer to work on Windows is incredibly convoluted compared to CUPS.

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