Meditation study shows changes associated with awareness, stress (2011) • Hacker News Board

Re: Meditation study shows changes associated with awareness, stress (2011)

#71

Post by goblin89 » Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 12:11 PM UTC

Sammi wrote: post #69

vidarh wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You miss the point. Thoughts, whether about the past or future, or anything else, are perfectly valid objects of meditation, as long as you observe them rather than getting caught up in them . The thoughts after all, occur here and now. Consider the difference as one of engaging in an argument vs. watching someone else engage in an argument. When you are caught up in an argument, you attach emotions to it in a whole…

This here was exactly the key to mindfulness for me. Learning that I don't need to suppress my thoughts and have a blank mind mind. This was my mistake before. I got frustrated when new thoughts inevitably came up, and ended up either focusing on my frustration or the thought. But then I learned to just observe my thoughts non-judgmentally and without delving into them. Just let the thought be, just as I just let my…

> This here was exactly the key to mindfulness for me. Learning that I don't need to suppress my thoughts and have a blank mind mind.

Yeah, suppressing doesn’t work that well. For me one of such keys was a trick where you try to visualize your thoughts like clouds in the sky. Another was the recommendation, not sure if I remember the exact phrasing, to “look between two thoughts”. Deadly efficient, this one.

Re: Meditation study shows changes associated with awareness, stress (2011)

#72

Post by lostcolony » Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 12:16 PM UTC

timeofgifts wrote: post #67

bobsgame wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to one of these and got freaked out because it's an unmistakable cult. The teachers on the podiums up at the front is a creepy psychological hack, the recorded chanting they play while you meditate is hypnotic programming, the 2 hour video lectures of the great leader convincing you of his religion being your only stimulation, the bowing and mindless chanting from the regulars being passed off as "optional for…

> I went to one of these and got freaked out That's the problem, you freaked out and left, even though they ask everyone multiple times at the beginning whether you are ready to stay for the full 10 days. As someone who took more than one of these courses I can say that the single most important thing you should do during your first course is not quit. Strange things start happening to people when they are put into a…

You have two comments on HN, one linking to one of these ten day courses, and now this one defending it, nothing else. You may want to be a bit more active, and on other topics, if you want to be seen as credible.

Re: Meditation study shows changes associated with awareness, stress (2011)

#73

Post by vidarh » Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 12:30 PM UTC

ozborn wrote: post #4

I think if you are looking for mental self improvement this Havard article may be more appropriate ( http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/regular-exercise-changes-... ). The short summary is exercise . Not only do you get your "better brain", but the rest of your body benefits as well.

You get your "better brain", but from doing/having done both, the benefits are very different. They are not substitutes for each other.

Re: Meditation study shows changes associated with awareness, stress (2011)

#74

Post by vidarh » Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 12:34 PM UTC

chrissyb wrote: post #42

kranner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren't expecting to see changes in the control group. Control groups represent the baseline, untreated state. Also, meditation and relaxation are not the same thing.

You're right, meditation is relaxation with a sprinkle of woo.

You think meditation is relaxation, you do not realise how much effort it takes. I'd suggest finding a tutorial and trying even 5 minutes.

As for the "sprinkle of woo", some meditation practices comes with buckets of foo, while some are entirely woo free.

Re: Meditation study shows changes associated with awareness, stress (2011)

#75

Post by estefan » Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 12:41 PM UTC

sravfeyn wrote: post #30

redmaverick wrote: post #23

There are different types of meditation styles. I had experience with a type of meditation mentioned in the article. It is known as mindfulness meditation. Even in mindfulness meditation there are different approaches. Mine is mindfulness through the awareness of bodily sensations. http://www.dhamma.org/ This is the 10 day course I underwent. It is pretty brutal and intense. You meditate for 8 hrs a day in total sile…

Why and in what way is thinking about sensations and one's body different from thinking about past or future? Aren't there other ways to condition mind to bring back its thoughts away from the Past or Future, why is focusing on breathing the only way that meditation teaches?

> Why and in what way is thinking about sensations and one's body different from thinking about past or future?

Being aware activates a different part of the brain to thinking. See https://www.coursera.org/course/meditation and "The Science of Happiness" on edx.org for more.

Re: Meditation study shows changes associated with awareness, stress (2011)

#76

Post by insickness » Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 12:52 PM UTC

fernly wrote: post #41

rohitarondekar wrote: post #9

I'm not well versed with reading research papers etc but I have one question. Could it be possible that by simply practicing mindfulness meditation the brain restructured itself via a placebo style effect rather that because of the meditation itself? For anybody who has access to the paper what did the control group do during the eight weeks?

Not clear what distinction you are trying to make. They practiced mindfulness meditation according to a specific, published plan, and brain anatomy changes were noted. It doesn't seem they are making any claim other than, this series of exercises produce this effect. The paper doesn't seem to be available, but the abstract at the author's page[0] says "Healthy but stressed individuals are randomized to either a medit…

If the control group were doing nothing for eight weeks, they would expect no change. An expectation of change can illicit substantial differences. That's the placebo effect.

When administering medication and checking for results, the control group is given a sugar pill rather than nothing. If they were given nothing it would not eliminate the placebo effect.

Re: Meditation study shows changes associated with awareness, stress (2011)

#77

Post by estefan » Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 12:55 PM UTC

bobsgame wrote: post #59

redmaverick wrote: post #23

There are different types of meditation styles. I had experience with a type of meditation mentioned in the article. It is known as mindfulness meditation. Even in mindfulness meditation there are different approaches. Mine is mindfulness through the awareness of bodily sensations. http://www.dhamma.org/ This is the 10 day course I underwent. It is pretty brutal and intense. You meditate for 8 hrs a day in total sile…

I went to one of these and got freaked out because it's an unmistakable cult. The teachers on the podiums up at the front is a creepy psychological hack, the recorded chanting they play while you meditate is hypnotic programming, the 2 hour video lectures of the great leader convincing you of his religion being your only stimulation, the bowing and mindless chanting from the regulars being passed off as "optional for…

YMMV I guess. I did a similar course and the religiousy aspects did put me off a bit (bowing and prostrations), but the leader did explain there was no worship involved and that the practices were to remind you of what you wanted to aspire to. He offered the techniques and said they worked for some people but not others, and to take what worked best for you. Maybe your videotaped guy was too pushy?

We did have to read some Buddhist verses every morning which was incredibly boring, but hey ho, it was a Buddhist retreat so I expected something along those lines. And anyway, it provided a chance to be aware of the resistance I have to organised religions.

> the recorded chanting they play while you meditate is hypnotic programming

I probably wouldn't put it like that, but if the chanting didn't induce some sort of effect it would be pointless to do anyway. "Programming" isn't it though.

> I tried to skip a session because I didn't get enough sleep and the management came and got me out of my room. That's when I knew it was time to leave.

I got tired with the 5am starts, but the discipline is something I find lacking on a normal weekend so overall I found the experience valuable.

> Many of the people there mentioned they go several times a year, with that glassy eyed obsessed stare. At least one person mentioned they had moved their home to be near the group.

Yeah, some people can get a bit over-excited - but the benefit of it being a silent retreat is you don't have to listen to them go on about it :-)

TBH if you found a decent teacher you'd probably form a different opinion. I think these retreats need to be taught very delicately to emphasise the practices while not pushing a dogma or religion on you.

Re: Meditation study shows changes associated with awareness, stress (2011)

#78

Post by estefan » Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 1:03 PM UTC

kranner wrote: post #16

krick wrote: post #11

I surfed through the links quite rapidly, but I haven't seen any description on what exactly exercises they used. "Meditation" is a term so easily abused, you know. There's quite a few schools calling "meditation" something completely different, some techniques almost opposites (quite literally) of each other. Hell, why to talk about different schools when even Zen has both very different zazen and other meditation p…

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925492710... Looks like Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR), a specific practice developed by Jon Kabat-Zinn.

I can't recommend his "Mindfulness for Beginners" book enough. Although I've been "meditating" for years, this book is packed with subtleties that are easily missed. In other teachings, it can be very difficult to separate religious dogma ("all you need is love, man") to the things that actually make a difference, scientifically, to your practice ("bring gentleness and kindness to the process").

One line especially made me realise I'd missed something important for years: Be aware "as if your life depended on it". That's about it.

Re: Meditation study shows changes associated with awareness, stress (2011)

#79

Post by scrapcode » Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 1:05 PM UTC

radva42 wrote: post #54

I have been practicing mindfulness meditation for the last 14 months - 30 minutes, everyday and I have to say that it has been virtually the most important skill that I have picked up. Because it's essentailly that - a skill. I was very stressed and the anxiety started to affect virtually every aspect of my life. My family wanted me to seek professional help (take pills), but I decided to try to take care of it mysel…

Your comment is great because I understand it. I've read up on meditation a little here, a little there. It was difficult for me to understand at first. What is meditation? What is the point? What happens when I do it right? When can I tell I'm doing it right? I just completely didn't understand it, and I couldn't find an explanation in any of the books that I read. I was making it out to be very complex. Then I actually tried it. I didn't get it, so I gave up. After my 4th or 5th attempt, I concentrated on my breath and that was it. I grasped a better understanding that time of what all the fuss is about. I was a little better at being in the "now" that time, and I even felt different for a short time afterwards, although I couldn't describe it in words if I wanted... Then I haven't done it again since.

A question for you when it comes to anxiety... Do you feel that you control the anxiety much better now? For example, I've developed anxiety when I'm at heights working to the point that sometimes I lock up, and feel like I'm about to start having a panic attack. Do you feel like you can intercept those emotions and react physically in a calm manner?

Re: Meditation study shows changes associated with awareness, stress (2011)

#80

Post by estefan » Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 1:09 PM UTC

chrissyb wrote: post #33

The thing i don't like about the term "meditation" is that its too closely intertwined with spirituality. Where meditation should actually be associated with relaxation. This article only mentions the control group twice, once to say "None of these changes were seen in the control group, indicating that they had not resulted merely from the passage of time". This is just bad reporting - How about telling us what the…

> Where meditation should actually be associated with relaxation.

Thanks for the tip! Might as well just smoke a joint if it's all about relaxing, hey?

It's pretty amazing to discover some of the less obvious aspects of yourself, I wouldn't dismiss "spirituality" without thoroughly investigating yourself first...