Serious question, as I don't really have a strong opinion on zero rating either way: In a scenario where zero-rating is available to all actors at equivalent prices, is there still a problem? It would raise the barrier to entry for internet companies perhaps, but probably not by too much. I guess you could argue it encourages bandwidth capping? I'd like to hear arguments from both sides.
Wikipedia’s ‘complicated’ relationship with net neutrality
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Re: Wikipedia’s ‘complicated’ relationship with net neutrality
#22There was no concept of 'zero-rating' before telecoms/ISPs established the concept of a 'rate-per-byte'.
well, early residential connections were paid per minute, so I don't see how that was any better. There's nothing wrong with rate-per-byte, because some of the costs actually are per-byte.
* Dial-up in the 28.8k era was per-minute. Occasional $700 AOL bill. Mom was pissed.
* Dial-up in the 33.6k through 56k eras was flat-rate. Start a download before bed, enjoy it in the morning.
* Broadband, pre 3mbps era. Flat rate.
* Netzero: Back to dialup, but now free. (Especially if you replaced their dialer software with a pencil-and-paper key to the Caesar cipher they used for auth.)
* Cellular. Sorta based on SMS rates.
* Broadband, 10mbps. Some companies have caps. Only a subset of users notice them, nobody had their back.
* Mobile. Smart phones! But the device is the limiting factor, not the network.
* Broadband, every major provider has caps written into the contract, but few enable technical enforcement of the caps. I smell deception: "We've always had these caps, you must have increased your usage!"
* Mobile, post 3g: pay per byte, period.
Re: Wikipedia’s ‘complicated’ relationship with net neutrality
#23Serious question, as I don't really have a strong opinion on zero rating either way: In a scenario where zero-rating is available to all actors at equivalent prices, is there still a problem? It would raise the barrier to entry for internet companies perhaps, but probably not by too much. I guess you could argue it encourages bandwidth capping? I'd like to hear arguments from both sides.
Re: Wikipedia’s ‘complicated’ relationship with net neutrality
#24There was no concept of 'zero-rating' before telecoms/ISPs established the concept of a 'rate-per-byte'.
"Zero rating" is harmful because content providers and telecoms get to decide what is worth providing for "free". It's never really free because in the end someone is paying for bandwidth.
Voice calls, text, and IP are all just data. If I pay for 20/5mbps, give me that. If I have a fixed speed of 20mbps, I do not have "unlimited data" so there is no need to monitor and cap. It is 20mbps / 8 * 86400 seconds * 30 days = 6TB per month max. 64kbps is 20GB/month max. Nobody's browsing 24/7 at max. speed on mobile so there is very little chance a mobile user in free data plan of 64kbps is really going to use 20GB of data per month.
Wikipedia should consistently support Net Neutrality throughout the world regardless of local deals. If they really want to help consumers in poor countries, fight for them to get a slow data plan that can be used not only for Wikipedia but also Khan Academy, MIT OpenCourseWare, or anything else the user wants to see.
Re: Wikipedia’s ‘complicated’ relationship with net neutrality
#25Serious question, as I don't really have a strong opinion on zero rating either way: In a scenario where zero-rating is available to all actors at equivalent prices, is there still a problem? It would raise the barrier to entry for internet companies perhaps, but probably not by too much. I guess you could argue it encourages bandwidth capping? I'd like to hear arguments from both sides.
An alternative, would be to allow zero-rating through free prioritization. Give either web services or consumers the choice of "this is an important connection: per-byte-rate and give higher priority," or "this isn't so important: zero-rate and give lower priority."
That way VoIP and other latency/rate-critical services could operate more reliably, while BitTorrent, home cloud storage and others could operate without congesting the network and without data cap problems. If this choice was allowed in an automated way, it would not seem to cause any unfairness, or keep smaller/newer players off the market.
Re: Wikipedia’s ‘complicated’ relationship with net neutrality
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Wikipedians take it on faith that their website is better, more useful, more ethical, more informative, etc., than other websites. I've been a Wikipedia editor for about 10 years. I don't think that your perception of the community has any basis in reality. Lot's of Wikimedians are pretty vocal about their disagreements with the Wikimedia Foundation on a wide range of issues (including this one). There are lots of…
How do you feel about non-neutral treatment of Wikipedia traffic? Does this differ from your feelings on non-neutral treatment of Netflix traffic?
I tend to agree with the WMF that in parts of the world where millions of people are using a smartphone as their first computer, providing free information is key to wikimedia's mission. I think that the world would be better off if all websites were treated equally by all ISPs, but I also think the world would be better off if millions of people who have never had a computer before can have the access to information that we take for granted. Given that the WMF is unlikely to be able to change telecom policy or business practices in all these countries, I think it's better to work within the existing system and provide a resource that would otherwise be costly (perhaps prohibitively so).
Having said that, many Wikimedians disagree with me.
Re: Wikipedia’s ‘complicated’ relationship with net neutrality
#27There was no concept of 'zero-rating' before telecoms/ISPs established the concept of a 'rate-per-byte'.
This is also how mobile data has historically been billed: data packages really only took off with the relase of the iPhone, and before that most people just paid per-kb (which is why nobody actually used their mobile data capability).
Re: Wikipedia’s ‘complicated’ relationship with net neutrality
#28The authors didn't address the point that all the current use cases for zero rating are on wireless, not on traditional broadband. The Google-Verizon proposal from 2010 had this "wireless exclusion". I was opposed to it in principle, but now as a T-mobile customer I really love the fact that Spotify doesn't count to my usage limits. I can completely see how zero rating could benefit the developing world and even the…
Wondering why you don't see an issue with zero-rating - it's essentially making an unlevel playing field, with the big players like Facebook/Spotify buying an anticompetitive moat against any new entrants. I don't see how zero-rating is going to help network congestion either - won't zero-rated Spotify for my neighbors causes my calls to drop or my maps to not update? Is zero-rating some bandwidth somehow magically e…
(i) http://www.t-mobile.com/offer/music-freedom-list.html This is a large enough list that I wouldn't worry about anti-competitiveness. It is still them vs. everyone else, but looking at the list right now, the barriers to entry cannot be that high, which means any anti-competitive effect cannot be that high either. I and most others in my income category (college undergrads) are willing to accept this in order to have free music streaming.
(ii) Facebook (in some parts of the developing world) is a slightly different issue, and not necessarily one that I agree with. Still, zero rating popular websites in the developing world seems to be win-win-win for consumers, carriers, and content providers, and ignoring market forces is simply not a solution. Especially if the target demographic simply cannot afford to pay for data - this is an entirely different market and I don't have the experience to form an opinion on this. Edited my original post to remove Facebook.
(iii) Let's assume all paid traffic should be treated equally. And to keep things fair to paying customers, paid traffic should be prioritized over free traffic. I'm willing to bet this already happens indirectly - by lowering the music quality when the network is congested.
But what if I have Spotify Premium - I (indirectly) pay for my traffic, so why should your maps app be any more important?
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Obviously there are tough questions here, and a "one size fits all" net neutrality approach for wireless and broadband might not be the best solution.
If wireless was as cheap and fast as broadband, I would be all for net neutrality on wireless. But it's not. They are different 'products' in economic terms (even if they have a similar end result and "feel the same"), and I think it's therefore okay for policies that govern them to be different.
Re: Wikipedia’s ‘complicated’ relationship with net neutrality
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do you feel about non-neutral treatment of Wikipedia traffic? Does this differ from your feelings on non-neutral treatment of Netflix traffic?
In the US or in Sub-Saharan Africa? I tend to agree with the WMF that in parts of the world where millions of people are using a smartphone as their first computer, providing free information is key to wikimedia's mission. I think that the world would be better off if all websites were treated equally by all ISPs, but I also think the world would be better off if millions of people who have never had a computer befor…
but I also think the world would be better off if millions of people who have never had a computer before can have the access to information that we take for granted
Like Netflix? Or only like Wikipedia? That's the question. Are you saying it's more important for Sub-Saharan Africans to get access to Wikipedia than Netflix? Netflix might disagree. scholarpedia.org might have something to say about it as well. So might stackexchange.com.
Re: Wikipedia’s ‘complicated’ relationship with net neutrality
#30This is a bullshit stance by Wikipedia. If when Wikipedia started there had been some popular ad supported encyclopedia that received preferential ISP treatment Wikipedia would not exist today. Maybe it makes sense for the established internet companies to oppose net neutrality because they're the ones that would get packaged up by the ISPs. But it's bad for everyone else.