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Ask HN: From zero to IT career, what is the fastest path?

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Re: Ask HN: From zero to IT career, what is the fastest path?

#51

I would say the answer depends on Where in Europe your friends are seeking employment. The job market - and the job requirements - are significantly different between Rural Romania, Berlin or an oil field in Norway. They are 30+. General advice there is to stay away from competing with the 20+ crowd. Compete where age is on your side, which means go into business where you have 10 years experience over the young ones…

Genuine question. > General advice there is to stay away from competing with the 20+ crowd. What do you see as the relative strengths of the 20-30 developer vs. the 30+ or 40+ developer?

The relative strengths is ability to change vs stability.

Generally here, the development skills vary more between individuhals than between age groups. Straight out of university, young developers tends to have done smaller projects (1-4 team members, 100 man hours each) and have excellent technical knowledge about latest toolkits. They will be able to solve very difficult technical issues and have an agile mind. They do not have experience from issues arising in larger projects (10-100 developers) due to legacy code, support agreements, management issues, project methodology, and they haven't even tought of corporate culture and office politics yet (sometimes for the better). The love for "my new stuff is better than the old code" can lead to design decisions which causes untested technologies to be used in the wrong places. Young developers often have no kids and sometimes no spouse, which makes them work long hours,and be very flexible in crunch times.

Older developers tends to have spouses and kids and responsibilities. This sometimes is a problem, but it can also force them to release the code as soon as possible, instead of doing a third or fifth round of optimisations and improvements. Older developers have seen the office politics and shenanigans several times and try to avoid them or even handle them. The older developer may sometimes be lazy and stick with older tools instead of new technologies, which can make products look and feel like they were designed last decade. But in large corporations, it's better with a released working code that looks old but is stable, than code which isn't stable.

Money-wise it's a toss-up. The extra experience from older programmers comes at a premium cost, which most of the time makes me assign junior programmers for the bulk of the work and senior ones for architecture etc.

Re: Ask HN: From zero to IT career, what is the fastest path?

#52

Software development is a hell of a lot more difficult to do right than all the other non-programming IT jobs. If you want a job ASAP, learn desktop support, be a network analyst/systems analyst, systems administrator, database admin, quality assurance analyst/engineer/tester, etc. A lot of jobs out there are just "we needed someone to set up this software for us and push a button once in a while", and they pay well.…

Add to that list "Business Intelligence" developer/analyst, although that term is gradually changing into something about analytics and data science, which are demanding degrees in statistics.

The reality is that a lot of "Business Intelligence" work is writing SQL & reports for business types that don't know how to write SQL or don't want to learn.

It means writing a lot of reports, but its a good way to get exposed to a business and yet still be involved with light development. There's room to grow too if you want to learn more about data warehouse design, ETL processes, OLAP cubes, etc etc.

Re: Ask HN: From zero to IT career, what is the fastest path?

#53
Don't learn to program, program to learn. Of course this is just an adage. You won't learn good practice only by trial and error; that's reinventing the wheel. Still, writing (and rewriting) a non-trivial project in one's spare time is the best way to learn. It's comparable to learning a foreign language - you need to have live conversations, not just study grammar and memorize vocabulary.

Create some app of your own - or several - and opensource it once it is of fairly solid quality. That's a ticket to getting a proper programming job, even if you're in your 30s or 40s.

Do not overestimate the role of a technology stack that you happen to choose.

Re: Ask HN: From zero to IT career, what is the fastest path?

#54

I know you're a proficient developer (to say the least) so maybe a clear perspective is a benefit: programming for a living is damn hard :) especially if you're almost starting from scratch suggesting node.js as a career path could be a sort of nightmare for a newcomer. I'd suggest your friends to get their hands dirty with a popular open source project and getting involved in a software company doing technical suppo…

Thanks for your advice, I agree with you, it is super important to stay pragmatic. Maybe this can be just a starting point and it is possible to evolve and build their own stuff, learn new languages, but to start ASAP with something simple enough, and with something that have an economic model, is the key. Thanks!

Re: Ask HN: From zero to IT career, what is the fastest path?

#55

I know you're a proficient developer (to say the least) so maybe a clear perspective is a benefit: programming for a living is damn hard :) especially if you're almost starting from scratch suggesting node.js as a career path could be a sort of nightmare for a newcomer. I'd suggest your friends to get their hands dirty with a popular open source project and getting involved in a software company doing technical suppo…

This is great advice, I think. Wordpress and Drupal are both growing very fast. They are easier for beginners to get involved with than a language like node.js, because the beginner is not starting from a blank screen. The software provides a structured and documented API for them to learn from.

And especially in Drupal, there is a lot that you can do without writing a single line of code, just by installing and configuring modules. This is often called "site building" expertise, or sometimes a junior "developer" (despite the near-lack of actual development). And there is actually demand for it, because real developers find that work tedious and boring; but it is a huge part of building almost any Drupal website.

The way to get involved is to find local meetups and start chatting people up. I know of at least a few people in the DC area who went from nontechnical jobs to senior Drupal developers making 6 figures this way--just showing up every time, working on volunteer stuff, and eventually getting some contract work or an entry-level position. From that point it's all about hard work and delivering.

Re: Ask HN: From zero to IT career, what is the fastest path?

#56

I would say the answer depends on Where in Europe your friends are seeking employment. The job market - and the job requirements - are significantly different between Rural Romania, Berlin or an oil field in Norway. They are 30+. General advice there is to stay away from competing with the 20+ crowd. Compete where age is on your side, which means go into business where you have 10 years experience over the young ones…

I kinda agree but at the same time I disagree with you. You make a fair point on saying few stuff.

I do agree that I wouldn't advise someone to start a career with programming if they were 30's and 40's. But yet again everything is doable.

But for a 15y/o learning some programming stuff... for him programming can be a career. Don't forget we have so many new stuff coming out everyday that older programmers if they exist and they haven't become project managers wouldn't really go into.

Also when you mentioned Wordpress because he has knowledge of HTML and CSS... well he had* prolly. Atm I would say that CSS is a very complicated and delicate thing that pays well to people that own that field. With mobile and tablets you need to know how to write responsive code. CSS has move from when it was just static text.

To the Original poster: I can't really think of anyone around my circle which includes most of the UK's leading Tech Companies and a lot in San Fran, that would go off and hire a 30-40 years old person that has some experience in programming but he is not actually a programmer. They can start as junior developers but again the salary will be low and the competition to get in that field... plus people that are hiring for junior developers would like to see a youngster that can learn and become a senior after few years, I don't think they will go with someone older than 25 unless they are looking for a frontend developer passing it as a junior developer role.

My advise to them is maybe to start off their own little thing maybe a webproject or a mobile app and try to find investors?

On one of the comments you replied that one of the guys is from Vienna(Austria) I thought that Austria has a very good economy atm. I get why the other guy from Spain has trouble but Switzerland and Austria are on top of EU atm.

Re: Ask HN: From zero to IT career, what is the fastest path?

#57
post #8

Learn JavaScript. Go attending the 3month JavaScript bootcamp with http://www.hackreactor.com . You have 99% of chance of landing a $100k+ job afterwards

If I was paying someone $100k, I'd expect them to have just ever so slightly more than a tiny amount of experience in a single language.

Yeah. Like, who needs full stack engineers nowadays anyway? :)

Re: Ask HN: From zero to IT career, what is the fastest path?

#58
post #43

I'd say to them: learn Java. Java is in high demand, and if you know either C and/or PHP I'm sure your friends will pick it up. Although there's some competition, you don't have to worry with competing with the 20s kids as long as you are an OK programmer . I believe there's enough demand for your friends to get hired, and theres a ton of resources on java stuff. Better yet, if you can manage to get Oracle certified,…

I'm currently taking a Java class at a non-profit org and they suggest the same strategy. Can you please point me to the Java Github projects that you suggested to your friend? Any other tips or advice would be appreciated.
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