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God's Lonely Programmer

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221–230 of 339 posts

Re: God's Lonely Programmer

#221
post #129

I wonder if he would get this much positive attention if he wasn't a Christian extremist. Would the article have conveniently left out his racism if he was, say, a militant antisemite instead of being focused on black people as he is? Would people admire his worship of a random number generator if he used it to spit out slogans of a religious text that isn't as revered as the Bible? While his schizophrenia probably c…

He's 'high functioning' in the sense that he can produce elaborate computer software that runs fast, in other words he has impressive engineering skills. Socially he's pretty incapable. I think his offensive racist, homophobic and other offensive remarks are part and parcel of his condition because I've spent quite a lot of time reading his rants, and disagree with your claim that his use of slurs is not random and g…

It's hard to disagree with that. However, being offensive (in the way that word is most commonly used) is not even my point. I also never expressed doubts about his engineering prowess. People can have significant mental impairments and still perform math or engineering tasks, though the output of these tasks is often colored by their limitations as well. He is the same way. Imagine the things he could accomplish if he wasn't in schizophrenic mode!

My point was about whether he is an "inspiration" or not. Mentally ill people can be assholes, too. It's debatable and probably an unsolvable question to which extent his badness comes from his disease, so all we're left with at this point is to simply judge him by his behavior, and maybe charitably take some factors into account in his favor. But even after doing that, I can't get to a state where I can say: "this person is awesome and a continuing inspiration to me".

The nature of mental illness makes it very hard to talk about the core personality of affected people. Their illness is a part of them, just as all of our little hangups and traumata are a part of every one of us. These properties are us in a very real sense.

On a multidimensional scale of personalities, I do judge him way more harshly than a person with Tourette's syndrome, precisely because there is meaning behind the words when he speaks them - even after I make a conscious effort to discard the instances where that meaning was distorted, there is still enough content left that I'm uncomfortable with subscribing to this person.

Ultimately I'd like to reiterate: my frustration is not with him. With this illness, he got a bad deal in life. I hope he stays safe and gets all the care he needs. I hope he can continue to find creative outlets like his operating system. My frustration is with people idolizing him in his entirety, accepting or maybe even sharing his views. I do think it's possible to admire the work a person does without subscribing to their views, but when doing so you have to work extra hard to separate the two. You can't just admire that person without reservations. Frequently, on this thread and elsewhere, no reservations were even visible. We even got people talking about how he was factually right about calling black people dumb.

Re: God's Lonely Programmer

#222
post #129

I wonder if he would get this much positive attention if he wasn't a Christian extremist. Would the article have conveniently left out his racism if he was, say, a militant antisemite instead of being focused on black people as he is? Would people admire his worship of a random number generator if he used it to spit out slogans of a religious text that isn't as revered as the Bible? While his schizophrenia probably c…

The world is more subtle than good and bad.

This is ofcourse subjective. I choose to believe that he is both a good person and someone who says bad things.

I however, place more value one what people do rather than what they say.

Re: God's Lonely Programmer

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could impart upon you the disempowering effect of condescension. When you "offer help" to someone who is happy with where they're at, and not in distress, you're basically telling them that they probably can't make it without you stepping in to support them. You're telling them that they, the wretched ones, are dependent upon the real people, who come down from on high to help them sort their obviously broke…

I appreciate the perspective. I'm here to learn and to understand. It's very difficult to understand this, but I can see how it might be true. If that's the case, the only alternative seems to be not to offer help to anyone. Is that preferable, especially if the entire world starts behaving like that? It just seems like "Hey, do you need any help?" can't possibly be a negative. But I'm willing to accept I could be wr…

Let's jump this over to a topical thought experiment.

A new programmer is hired in your office, who happens to be a woman.

She seems to doing ok in her new job, getting things done. She seems fine with it. Her boss seems fine with it. Neither her nor her boss show any signs of dissatisfaction with her work situation.

Do you go by every now and then while she's working and ask "Hey, do you need any help?" You don't habitually ask anyone else that question.

Do you see how that could be a negative? Do you understand why she might take it as condescending?

Re: God's Lonely Programmer

#224
post #222
post #129

I wonder if he would get this much positive attention if he wasn't a Christian extremist. Would the article have conveniently left out his racism if he was, say, a militant antisemite instead of being focused on black people as he is? Would people admire his worship of a random number generator if he used it to spit out slogans of a religious text that isn't as revered as the Bible? While his schizophrenia probably c…

The world is more subtle than good and bad. This is ofcourse subjective. I choose to believe that he is both a good person and someone who says bad things. I however, place more value one what people do rather than what they say.

I don't think you can rightfully accuse me of making simplistic judgements after reading my comment, but you are right that my reservations are subjective. My reservations say something about me and my values.

> I choose to believe that he is both a good person and someone who says bad things.

You probably won't be surprised when I say I can't square that.

Let's for a moment evaluate a hypothetical about good and bad people, since you chose those labels. Assume you got two people. One is "a good person who says good things" and the other is "a good person who says bad things". Which of the two is a better person? Your answer seems to be: that depends entirely on the goodness part. My answer is: it also depends on the quality and quantity of the badness part. What they say is a part of who they are.

> I however, place more value one what people do rather than what they say.

Thoughts do matter. When choosing your heroes, their ideology counts.

It's also a point of debate on what counts as "doing" something on the internet. Expressing beliefs and values is as much an action in itself as writing code.

Re: God's Lonely Programmer

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This Terry guy collects disability and lives with his parents. He seems to be asking for help constantly by virtue of the fact that he's only surviving due to the generosity of society. Don't project your personal experience onto everyone else. On a side note, I don't know anything about you, but judging solely from the comments in this thread, you are causing yourself so much unnecessary pain. You are the only one w…

He's carved a life out for himself that works. He has food, shelter, money, and fulfilling work. Why do you assume that he needs people to offer help?

What's going to happen when his parents pass away?

Re: God's Lonely Programmer

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could impart upon you the disempowering effect of condescension. When you "offer help" to someone who is happy with where they're at, and not in distress, you're basically telling them that they probably can't make it without you stepping in to support them. You're telling them that they, the wretched ones, are dependent upon the real people, who come down from on high to help them sort their obviously broke…

This Terry guy collects disability and lives with his parents. He seems to be asking for help constantly by virtue of the fact that he's only surviving due to the generosity of society. Don't project your personal experience onto everyone else. On a side note, I don't know anything about you, but judging solely from the comments in this thread, you are causing yourself so much unnecessary pain. You are the only one w…

[deleted]

Re: God's Lonely Programmer

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the perspective. I'm here to learn and to understand. It's very difficult to understand this, but I can see how it might be true. If that's the case, the only alternative seems to be not to offer help to anyone. Is that preferable, especially if the entire world starts behaving like that? It just seems like "Hey, do you need any help?" can't possibly be a negative. But I'm willing to accept I could be wr…

Let's jump this over to a topical thought experiment. A new programmer is hired in your office, who happens to be a woman. She seems to doing ok in her new job, getting things done. She seems fine with it. Her boss seems fine with it. Neither her nor her boss show any signs of dissatisfaction with her work situation. Do you go by every now and then while she's working and ask "Hey, do you need any help?" You don't ha…

You know, when I started this discussion, I didn't expect if to lead to someone comparing being a woman to being mentally ill, or I wouldn't have said anything. Maybe this is what pg meant that "forums can't be trusted with certain topics."

Re: God's Lonely Programmer

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While regrettable, his hellban is entirely necessary. Almost every comment he makes refers to "f------- n------" (censorship mine). To quote one from his page of most recent comments: "I spend my days clubbing r----d-n------. CLUB! CLUB! DIE N-----! CLUB! R----D! N------! DIE!! CLUB! N-----!" That's not really something we can have on HN. (edit: right, asterisks are formatting here)

Inc ase people weren't aware, there's a 'showdead' option in your HN profile that lets you see dead comments and submissions, eg those from hellbanned accounts. I don't think terry's comments are so consistently offensive as suggested above but he does post a lot of stuff that is bizarre or offensive to the casual reader, so the hellban makes sense. Other times he posts lucid informative comments on technical topics…

Also I've made a bookmarklet for anyone who wants it, which re-colors the faded comments with shades of red. In my opinion this is a much better user experience, as these comments are appropriately flagged but still readable without much effort:

https://github.com/guscost/bookmarklets/

Load the bookmarklets.html in a browser and then drag "Re-Color HN" to your bookmarks.

The faded down-voted comments are my least favorite part of the UI here (it's like "this comment is now 75% censored").

Re: God's Lonely Programmer

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's jump this over to a topical thought experiment. A new programmer is hired in your office, who happens to be a woman. She seems to doing ok in her new job, getting things done. She seems fine with it. Her boss seems fine with it. Neither her nor her boss show any signs of dissatisfaction with her work situation. Do you go by every now and then while she's working and ask "Hey, do you need any help?" You don't ha…

You know, when I started this discussion, I didn't expect if to lead to someone comparing being a woman to being mentally ill, or I wouldn't have said anything. Maybe this is what pg meant that "forums can't be trusted with certain topics."

You know, when I made my post, I considered you might try to defensively avoid it with precisely this tactic.

But then I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I see now this was a mistake.

You said you couldn't see how "Do you need any help?" could possibly be negative. I tried to offer a scenario that could help you understand. I did so in good faith.

I don't really appreciate you turning that into an attack.

Re: God's Lonely Programmer

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How careful do you have to be when saying this? The issue is that in saying that, you tend to be saying that black people intrinsically have lower intelligence than white people unless you're careful to be explicit about what you mean. As it is, that's not necessarily the case - there's a lot of disagreement over whether or not IQ tests are a correct measure of intelligence over more than one culture, for a start.…

> The issue is that in saying that, you tend to be saying that black people intrinsically have lower intelligence than white people unless you're careful to be explicit about what you mean. That's an issue, I don't think it's the issue, not be a long shot. Try being very careful and explicit about what you mean, it's not gonna help one whit, you're already on the third rail as soon as the words black, white and intel…

Exactly. We can't even start to try to think about the topic out loud in public.
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