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History of MOS 6502 [video]

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Re: History of MOS 6502 [video]

#3
Not a bad talk, considering that the guy wasn't even alive when the original 6502 was designed. He was confused on a few minor points, some of which Wikipedia clears up.[1][2]

a) There were really two chips done, the 6501 and 6502. The difference was in a few pins, the 6501 was fully pin-compatible with the 6800, the 6502 was easier to use in a system design since it did not require a two-phase non-overlapping 5V rail-to-rail clock.

b) The 6501 cost $20, the 6502 cost $25. Quantity 1. They ran at 1 MHz. You could send a letter to the company in Pennsylvania, with a check enclosed, and buy 1 chip for that price. Try buying one CPU chip from Intel nowadays. :)

c) The lawsuit by Motorola that he mentions resulted in MOS agreeing to discontinue the 6501. But that didn't matter much for 99% of their potential customers. First, the pin differences were very minor. Second, the TTL-level clock input in the 6502 meant that an external clock driver chip wasn't needed.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_6502 [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_6800

Re: History of MOS 6502 [video]

#4

Not a bad talk, considering that the guy wasn't even alive when the original 6502 was designed. He was confused on a few minor points, some of which Wikipedia clears up.[1][2] a) There were really two chips done, the 6501 and 6502. The difference was in a few pins, the 6501 was fully pin-compatible with the 6800, the 6502 was easier to use in a system design since it did not require a two-phase non-overlapping 5V rai…

I did not watch the talk yet, but there was also a third model (maybe later): The 6510 -- it was fully software compatible, but had 6 integrated I/O pins that could make small computer designs easier. Commodore used it for the C64 computer, because the 6 I/O pins saved for extra I/O chips. The 6 I/O pins would also be faster than external circuits because they could be accessed via the zero-page (address 0 and 1, as much I remember). One of the functions in the C64, they where used for, was bank-switching, since the C64 had 64kB RAM and additional ROM and memory mapped I/O regions. Thus bank switching was a must to be able to access all memory and I/O locations.

... unbelievable today, that the "operating system" resided in less than 8kB .... ;) The Basic interpreter occupied a little more than that ... so the C64 had 16kB ROM altogether.

(to be fair: The "operating system" of the C64 was not one according to today's standards, it was little more than a number of handling functions for some hardware basics ... todays BIOSes can be better compared to it)

Re: History of MOS 6502 [video]

#5
he sort of misses that the 8080 and 6800 were in the market before the 6502 - it was a latecomer.

The big architectural advance was two index registers, otherwise it was really sort of a 6800 (from a programmer at the times point of view)

As mentioned above having a clock that could be created by meere mortals was a big advance (previoud chips required you to be able to drive what must have been a complete unbuffered clock tree - rail to rail voltages and high peak current.

The thing he misses about yield is that for a fixed per wafer defect rate there's a point where reducing die size to 1/4 reduces the yield fallout by almost that much

Re: History of MOS 6502 [video]

#6

Not a bad talk, considering that the guy wasn't even alive when the original 6502 was designed. He was confused on a few minor points, some of which Wikipedia clears up.[1][2] a) There were really two chips done, the 6501 and 6502. The difference was in a few pins, the 6501 was fully pin-compatible with the 6800, the 6502 was easier to use in a system design since it did not require a two-phase non-overlapping 5V rai…

I forgot to mention another thing he didn't know was useful

d) BCD instructions, which he thinks are "kind of silly", and perhaps they are now that computers run at many GHz. But they were very useful in the old days. E.g. CBASIC [1] implemented BCD floating point math. Here's what Wiki says about it:

   CBASIC proved very popular because it
   incorporated 14-digit binary-coded decimal
   (BCD) math which eliminated MBASIC's rounding
   errors that were sometimes troublesome for
   accounting.
As the reference manual linked [2] from Wiki says:

   Real numbers are stored in eight bytes of
   memory. The first byte is the sign and
   exponent. The exponent is maintained in
   excess 64 code. The seven remaining bytes
   contain a normalized mantissa stored as
   packed decimal digits. The high order four
   bits of the rightmost byte is the most
   significant digit of the mantissa.
That was of course long before IEEE 754 floating point.[3] BTW did anyone know that IEEE defined decimal floating point? I didn't know that until just now. It's probably not that popular.

When a CPU runs at 1 MHz instead of 3 GHz, doing FP in BCD means much simpler and much faster conversion between internal representation and display. A lot of early microcomputers were used by small business. BCD is inferior for complicated scientific calculations, but is ideal for simple small business accounting, which was CBASICs target market.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBASIC [2] http://www.cpm.z80.de/manuals/cbasic-m.pdf [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_floating_point

Re: History of MOS 6502 [video]

#7
There are some cringeworthy aspects to this talk if you know the story. That does not actually distract because it is interesting watching someone tell the story when they revere the 6502 yet have not coded for it.

At the time that the 6502 hit the computer scene in a mass-market way it wasn't like you coded your code straight into a computer. Instead you actually wrote code out on paper. Then you looked up the opcodes and typed them into a margin. That was what you typed in on many personal computers of the time. The BBC micro had assembler options that you could drop into on BBC Basic, so, if you wanted to do something really cool then assembly was an option.

This was in the pre-internet era where you might have a few books and plenty of magazines - piles of them, normally, every back issue kept. You could not Google answers and have some SO answer pop up seconds later. You would have to rifle through the indexes on the few books you had. This was not an obstacle to learning, you could actually memorise the whole instruction set and be fairly sure of what the opcodes were. So, in a way, you could be your own Google.

I had exposure to Z80 before 6502, I also had some 6809 and 68000 knowledge. However, if you were new to programming it required quite a conceptual leap to know what an index register could do. Then things like the alternate registers - what do I do with these, please? Hence, the little 6502 was nice and easy. Although there were just the three registers you could master them and do what you needed to do with just that.

To a certain extent the 6502 forced people to build a proper computer without getting the CPU to do things like drive the display (Sinclair). You didn't really have to care about system interrupts for things outside your code plus the performance was pretty good in comparison to those systems that had a Z80 'do everything'.

Although Z80 might be a bit hard as a beginner, 6502 was a bit more manageable. With concepts learned on the 6502 you could go on to the other CPUs with relative ease, e.g. 68000 was easy if you knew 6502.

Going back to the talk, I had it easy - manuals, complete computers you could buy, even dot matrix printers. Plus community in those magazines. The generation before me that actually made the stuff I picked up they were on punched cards and reel-to-reel tapes. I cannot imagine how hard it was for them or the realities of how it was to problem solve given tools available. However, I imagine that leap is similar to the leap required by this speaker to understand the little takeaway here - you could actually program the 6502 without being overwhelmed by the size of the instruction set and, through doing so, get pretty good at it.

Re: History of MOS 6502 [video]

#9

Not a bad talk, considering that the guy wasn't even alive when the original 6502 was designed. He was confused on a few minor points, some of which Wikipedia clears up.[1][2] a) There were really two chips done, the 6501 and 6502. The difference was in a few pins, the 6501 was fully pin-compatible with the 6800, the 6502 was easier to use in a system design since it did not require a two-phase non-overlapping 5V rai…

I forgot to mention another thing he didn't know was useful d) BCD instructions, which he thinks are "kind of silly", and perhaps they are now that computers run at many GHz. But they were very useful in the old days. E.g. CBASIC [1] implemented BCD floating point math. Here's what Wiki says about it: CBASIC proved very popular because it incorporated 14-digit binary-coded decimal (BCD) math which eliminated MBASIC's…

An interesting related tidbit was that the BCD implementation was the only part of the 6502 that MOS patented. As you could not copyright an IC mask at the time, Nintendo/Ricoh were able to clone the 6502 without paying license fees simply by cutting the traces to that part of the chip. (Ricoh was a licensed second source for the 6502. I imagine Commodore was not happy with them after that...)

Re: History of MOS 6502 [video]

#10
post #5

he sort of misses that the 8080 and 6800 were in the market before the 6502 - it was a latecomer. The big architectural advance was two index registers, otherwise it was really sort of a 6800 (from a programmer at the times point of view) As mentioned above having a clock that could be created by meere mortals was a big advance (previoud chips required you to be able to drive what must have been a complete unbuffered…

It was explicitly a "sort of 6800". Chuck Peddle was on the 6800 design team, and so was his co-designer for the 6502 - Bill Mensch - and Rod Ogill that did the 6501.

Peddle tried to sell Motorola on making a cost reduced version. When Motorola refused to let him work on a cheap version, he left to do the 65xx.

Their first model - the 6501 - was designed to be pin compatible with the 6800, and resulted in a lawsuit from Motorola that almost bankrupted MOS.

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