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Starfish are dissolving up and down the West Coast

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Re: Starfish are dissolving up and down the West Coast

#31

Post by happyscrappy »

jdhendrickson wrote: post #26
Ntrails wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except CO2 from fossil fuels aren't even the largest contribution to "greenhouse gasses" that can be attributed to humans. Climate change is inevitable. It's happened before many times in the history of the earth, and will happen again. The behaviour of man and it's resulting emissions are largely agreed to have been impactful on the rate of change. However, I've seen statisticians and scientists poking rational hole…

I've linked a short well made video below which addresses your arguments. TLDW Just because man's emissions are relatively small in comparison to the over all natural emissions does not mean they don't affect things. I implore you, (as you seem a reasonable fellow who values science) to give it a watch and see if you still feel the same way. I'm willing to watch or read any counter argument you care to link if you wi…

Can we please not have arguments via video? Surely if the arguments are good there is a write up somewhere.

Re: Starfish are dissolving up and down the West Coast

#32

Post by debacle »

Gravityloss wrote: post #28
badgersandjam wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the problem. There should be no activism and no causes in science. Each of them implies bias and results in less than ethical practice and unreliable theories. To ask for rationality and the application of the scientific method results in claims of denialism and instant burying of the opinion. That's not acceptable.

I disagree completely. Thought experiment: An astronomer sees a comet approaching earth, that will kill billions. He wants to prevent those deaths. He starts campaigning for methods to prevent that: comet deflection, shelter building, whatever. Seems logical and humane to me.

That's engineering, not science.

Re: Starfish are dissolving up and down the West Coast

#33

Post by lotsofmangos »

badgersandjam wrote: post #21
gd1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing hurts the climate change 'cause' more than it being a 'cause' in the first place. Activism dressed up as science smells, and plenty of people who would otherwise be sympathetic can smell it.

This is exactly the problem. There should be no activism and no causes in science. Each of them implies bias and results in less than ethical practice and unreliable theories. To ask for rationality and the application of the scientific method results in claims of denialism and instant burying of the opinion. That's not acceptable.

Scientists are not magical logic faeries separated from the seething mass of culture by a wall of pure mathematics. Science is intertwined in life.

Once you have found that a species is being wiped out, you could stand on the sidelines and measure its decline, watching dispassionately, knowing that you can reach a good solid conclusion about what was killing them when the last dissection is fully documented, or you could chose to interfere and try and prevent the extinction.

However, if what is killing them is well funded human activity, you do not have a hope in hell of interfering successfully without getting political.

Re: Starfish are dissolving up and down the West Coast

#35

Post by badgersandjam »

Gravityloss wrote: post #28
badgersandjam wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the problem. There should be no activism and no causes in science. Each of them implies bias and results in less than ethical practice and unreliable theories. To ask for rationality and the application of the scientific method results in claims of denialism and instant burying of the opinion. That's not acceptable.

I disagree completely. Thought experiment: An astronomer sees a comet approaching earth, that will kill billions. He wants to prevent those deaths. He starts campaigning for methods to prevent that: comet deflection, shelter building, whatever. Seems logical and humane to me.

There's a pretty big assumption in there. That the comet is approaching earth and not going to miss it by half a parsec or that the comet is infact a bit of dirt on the lens of the telescope...

All of which need testing first before you start waving your hands around and start saying "WE'RE GOING TO FUCKING DIE - RUN!"

Re: Starfish are dissolving up and down the West Coast

#36

Post by happyscrappy »

gd1 wrote: post #20
waterlesscloud wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, actually, particularly when talking to a journalist about possible climate change effects that's precisely what scientists should do. If you need proof this kind of thing hurts the climate change cause, look at this thread, which is nearly entirely a debate over her one statement and nothing about any actual science.

Nothing hurts the climate change 'cause' more than it being a 'cause' in the first place. Activism dressed up as science smells, and plenty of people who would otherwise be sympathetic can smell it.

This cuts both ways. Demonizing one side ends all rational discussion. Where are the Tip O'Neils of today? We need them desperately.

Re: Starfish are dissolving up and down the West Coast

#37

Post by lotsofmangos »

happyscrappy wrote: post #31
jdhendrickson wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've linked a short well made video below which addresses your arguments. TLDW Just because man's emissions are relatively small in comparison to the over all natural emissions does not mean they don't affect things. I implore you, (as you seem a reasonable fellow who values science) to give it a watch and see if you still feel the same way. I'm willing to watch or read any counter argument you care to link if you wi…

Can we please not have arguments via video? Surely if the arguments are good there is a write up somewhere.

a - why not?

b - click the "show more" button. The text underneath the video is littered with references.

Re: Starfish are dissolving up and down the West Coast

#38

Post by iterationx »

Not just starfish

National Geographic, Nov 17, 2014: Urchins and cucumbers seemed to have escaped the ill effects of the virus until now. But in recent weeks, reports have started to come in that they too are dying along beaches in the Pacific Northwest, Hewson said… [He and his team are] studying the urchins and sea cucumbers that are already dying to see if the same killer is responsible.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/11/141117-starf...

Re: Starfish are dissolving up and down the West Coast

#39

Post by iterationx »

iterationx wrote: post #38

Not just starfish National Geographic, Nov 17, 2014: Urchins and cucumbers seemed to have escaped the ill effects of the virus until now. But in recent weeks, reports have started to come in that they too are dying along beaches in the Pacific Northwest, Hewson said… [He and his team are] studying the urchins and sea cucumbers that are already dying to see if the same killer is responsible. http://news.nationalgeogra…

Ronald L. Shimek, PhD, marine biologist, Nov 10, 2014: Jan Kocian, diving photographer extraordinare… has been actively surveying several marine subtidal areas in northern Puget Sound for some time… [During a Sept. 18] dive… on Whidbey Island, Washington… he started seeing things he had never previously observed.… there were many animals lying exposed on the sandy sea floor, looking limp, sick or dead. Red sea cucumbers were flaccid and dead… Aleutian Moon snails were in odd postures… pink/yellow worms [were] another rare or unusual sight…. Nuttall’s cockles were on the sediment surface with their siphons out, instead of being buried… 22nd September, the area containing dying animals was not only still present it was spreading; whatever seemed to be the cause was still doing its dirty work… 25th September [many] red sea cucumbers… were lying fully exposed, and apparently dead… 29th of September… A few living Cucumaria were acting oddly, not quite dead, but just slightly responsive to touch… Numerous green sea urchins were found with their spines in abnormal postures, definitely not looking healthy… The full extent of the dead area, and the reason for the mortality, remain indeterminate. http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2014/11/10/a-shallow-water-de...

And the polar bears, and the orcas.

Re: Starfish are dissolving up and down the West Coast

#40

Post by waterlesscloud »

lotsofmangos wrote: post #30
waterlesscloud wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's bad, irresponsible science. And it's bad, irresponsible journalism to make it a giant orange pull quote. "I think it's X. But I don't have any evidence yet." If you don't have any evidence, you shouldn't be talking about it to a journalist. Who, quite predictably, is going to make a big deal out of it. This sort of thing actively hurts the climate change cause. It's bad, and shouldn't be done.

By that standard, Einstein should have not talked to journalists about his 1905 relativity paper until the first prediction that wasn't null was experimentally verified in 1938.

That's simply not a comparable situation.
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