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Bringing Sous Vide to the Home Cook

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Re: Bringing Sous Vide to the Home Cook

#51

Does anyone know who had this sous vide stick design first, this (Anova) or the nomiku( http://www.nomiku.com/ )? It is possible that they both were designed in parallel but I would bet one came out before the other.

Weren't they all evolved from the chemistry lab immersion circulators that sous-vide chefs originally used? http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/PolyScience_Standard_Immer... http://www.polyscienceculinary.com/sousvide-thermal-circulat...

They just are what's being used in laboratories (or, at a larger scale, in industry) for keeping temperature. No need to evolve anything.

http://www.lauda.de/shop/en/temperiergerate/warme-und-kaltet...

Probably my family will complain if I bring the huge Lauda cooler/heater from the lab to the kitchen, though...

Re: Bringing Sous Vide to the Home Cook

#52
post #20

There's enough evidence that plastics leak harmful chemicals into our food that I don't want to eat anything that's been sitting in a plastic bag in warm water for hours on end. No thanks.

Not eating out, in your case? I'm no industry insider but from what I hear sous vide )and therefore plastic) is rampant.

Sous-vide isn't that prevalent in the mass-market chains, but what is used is the technique of preparing the bulk ingredients in a central kitchen, vaccuum sealing in plastic and then transporting to the stores.

The stores then rewarm the food in a hot water bath before serving. This technique enabled a chain like Taco Bell to drop all cooking in-store. It also raised their average sanitation scores since the risk of undercooked food is practically nil.

Even the beloved Chipotle prepares some stuff offsite, like the barbacoa and carnitas.

Re: Bringing Sous Vide to the Home Cook

#53

You can also use a beer cooler or other thermo-isolated container, filled with hot water at the correct temperature (kitchen thermometer), and a bunch of plastic baggies (plus something clever with tape). It's not quite as set-and-forget as a real sous-vide machine, you need to readjust the temperature (measure, adding more hot water, and stir a little, measure) about every 20 minutes or so (depending on the volume o…

I have used this method before and it works great. It is really useful for large parties where you are not sure when everyone will want to eat. Just throw everything in the cooler (heater I guess) and when everyone says let's eat throw everything on the bbq for a couple of minutes to sear.

Agreed, but if you did it right (that is, heat the meat through and through at the correct temperature[0]), really you shouldn't sear it for more than 15-20 seconds on both sides. The meat is already done, searing is just for the Maillard reaction creating a browned crust on the outside, adding flavour. Any additional heating beyond that just increases the size of the transition between (hot) brown crust outside and (less hot) perfectly done meat inside, and it is that transition layer that makes a steak tough. Which is exactly the (somewhat) hard thing about cooking a proper steak, the very thing you're trying to solve with sous vide.

That is the reason why they sometimes attack a sous vide steak with a butane torch. It's not only because it's cool :)

[0] 53 degrees Celsius is for rare steak. Rare should not be "undercooked" (flesh proteins denature at about 50C) and with sous vide you can make sure this is indeed the case.

Re: Bringing Sous Vide to the Home Cook

#54
post #38
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard-boiling an egg is trivial. Soft-boiling an egg, or making a perfect poached egg, is non-trivial; it's a finesse task. And doing it once or twice is one thing, but plating 10-20 for a bunch is another. Also: your definition of "a perfect steak" is different from mine. You either like a little overcooked steak or a little undercooked steak (or maybe a lot of either), because you can't get uniform doneness in a cas…

As I addressed in the other comment, yes, indeed, this is a technique built for traffic spikes. It is not a technique made for cooking breakfast. As to steak, just to be clear (since there seems to be a lot of misinformation in here), the best New York City steakhouses grill steaks in a 1800 degree broiler. This is a heat that is difficult to obtain at home, so the sear+oven actually yields a wonderful, very uniform…

That's a funny bit of message board aggression. Suggesting someone on a cooking thread about cooking steak that someone has never tried cooking a steak in a pan.

Re: Bringing Sous Vide to the Home Cook

#55
post #22

My perfect Sous Vide machine would be a Mellow[0] with an API. I want to throw some eggs (or other breakfast items) in the Mellow at night, it flips to a refrigerate option, and then hooks up with my alarm (physical or on phone) to make sure the eggs start cooking a few minutes before I wake up, so they're perfect when I roll out of bed. Then I'll empty the machine, throw dinner in, and it'll automatically be ready b…

It is somewhat fascinating how much the tech community seems to strive to try to solve non-problems. In this case, poaching or hard boiling an egg is so utterly simple, done in mere minutes, that it is simply impossible that this device could make it easier. And the grotesque proposed waste of energy borders on the absurd. And then, after you've had your perfectly cooked eggs that you presumably had to hop out of bed…

> And then, after you've had your perfectly cooked eggs that you presumably had to hop out of bed and rush to retrieve before they overcooked,

But they won't overcook. That's the point of sous vide. It heats the water temperature to a very specific point. The food will heat throughout until it's uniformly at that temperature. A few minutes extra won't make any difference because it's the temperature that determines the texture of the food (for most dishes), not how long it's been at that temperature[0].

Boiling water is 100 degrees Celsius and egg-white denatures at what, 40-45C? So your eggs will overcook, the sous-vide ones won't.

(edit: turns out it's more like 60-67C, before anyone runs out to try it based on my post, I'd have looked this up before trying)

> in your busy morning you're going to vacuum pack a steak? Seriously?

I never quite understood why it needs to be vacuum packed, actually. If you drop it in a plastic baggie, submerging into water will push the airbubbles out nicely.

> Or you can turn your oven to 200F. Toss a cast iron pan on your grilltop and sear at high heat, then move the whole thing to the oven. You'll quickly have a perfect steak without blowtorches or extended water bath time.

Ummmyeah... that would work. If you had gotten it right :) Steak goes into the oven first, cast iron skillet after (and then of course rest for five minutes before cutting it), and 200F is way too hot, that's like 93C, firmly beyond "well done" and into "shoe" territory. You can take it out before that happens obviously, but your steak won't be heated uniformly, in particular if you seared it before, you'll get an unnecessarily large transition layer (which the tough layer on the outside of a non-perfect steak) between the perfectly rare or medium inside (which is the part you want most of) and the brown crust outside (which you also want, but just for extra flavour and appearance).

It's just chemistry and physics.

> As with the soylent thing, it's like basic skills are now lacking so people looking for a lot of menial work to replace trivial undertakings.

I can accept the cynicism about the Soylent thing, but sous vide cooking is not just for "basic" cooking skills or to replace "trivial undertakings". Hey if you just want to cook a pretty good steak, go ahead and do that oven/skillet thing, mess it up like in your description if you like, because if you practice enough you'll get the timing just right and probably end up with a pretty damn good steak nearly all the time nonetheless. If you want a perfect steak, you want sous vide + blowtorch.

And in fairness, I do want to point out that a "pretty good" steak made from good quality meat will totally blow away a "perfect" (not) steak made from shitty meat (e.g. cheap frozen steaks). I tried and sous vide doesn't help at all. In fact overcooking it the traditional way might even help to cover up the shittyness. I do feel for the cow, whose life destiny was to end up as mere shitty frozen steak .. :-/

Anyway, in addition, the workflow of sous vide has a few benefits with regards to attention and timing. However I grant that certain traditional ways cooking can have other benefits. You may probably also take comfort in the assumption that people that invest in a sous vide machine really love cooking, and that for that reason they will probably invest in a good cast iron skillet first. Because if you love cooking you simply need one.

Finally, and I get a hunch you were thinking this but not saying it, I think the hacker / geek-factor of applying chemistry and physics concepts to the kitchen should not be dismissed either. It's a gadget with a thermostat and you even get to use a blowtorch after! You can quite easily build your own from basic electronic components (also check tropical fish aquarium supplies) and learn stuff about feedback control systems! You can experiment with crazy weird ways of preparing food! (what happens to cubes of marinated pork belly after 24 hours at ~55C for 24 hours is not just amazingly heavenly, but also impossible to achieve without sous vide) (try and find it at a restaurant if you don't care for the DIY, worth it).

 

[0] Now if you keep it at that temperature for more than a few hours, some "interesting" things may happen. Certain meats will become unnaturally tender (which may or may not be desirable), I dunno what happens to eggs though. This is presumably why he wants to set it to "refrigerate" for the large part of the night.

Re: Bringing Sous Vide to the Home Cook

#56
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is somewhat fascinating how much the tech community seems to strive to try to solve non-problems. In this case, poaching or hard boiling an egg is so utterly simple, done in mere minutes, that it is simply impossible that this device could make it easier. And the grotesque proposed waste of energy borders on the absurd. And then, after you've had your perfectly cooked eggs that you presumably had to hop out of bed…

"In this case, poaching or hard boiling an egg is so utterly simple, done in mere minutes, that it is simply impossible that this device could make it easier. And the grotesque proposed waste of energy borders on the absurd." said like someone who has never used the sous vide cooking method. this is about precise cooking, which yeilds very specific results; it's very different than your 'toss a bunch of eggs into boi…

Huh that steak pic can't be right? I'm pretty certain the range is 53C (rare) to 60C (medium-done). Unless my thermometer was way off, or maybe it's a sea-level thing? (I'm in NL, sea-level + first floor).

You can check it for yourself, there's a distinct difference in how it feels sticking your hand in water less than 50C and sticking it in water a few degrees hotter than that. That's because your body doesn't like it when its proteins start to denature, either :P

Re: Bringing Sous Vide to the Home Cook

#57
post #39
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I do think that. Hard-boiled eggs are gross. Set egg yolks are gross. An egg white that is even slightly undercooked is also disgusting. There's a relatively narrow band of doneness in which eggs are good. You sound less like an advocate of simplicity and more like, as Dave Arnold would put it, "an enemy of quality". :)

A "six minute egg" has been a benchmark for literally centuries . Apologies if there is confusion, but when I say "hard boiled", I mean all doneness levels of boiled eggs.

> A "six minute egg" has been a benchmark for literally centuries.

That's just the name, it's never exactly six minutes because it depends on the cooking equipment, initial temperature of the egg, size, etc. The exact time is usually found after experimentation in one person's specific kitchen.

Re: Bringing Sous Vide to the Home Cook

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have used this method before and it works great. It is really useful for large parties where you are not sure when everyone will want to eat. Just throw everything in the cooler (heater I guess) and when everyone says let's eat throw everything on the bbq for a couple of minutes to sear.

Agreed, but if you did it right (that is, heat the meat through and through at the correct temperature[0]), really you shouldn't sear it for more than 15-20 seconds on both sides. The meat is already done, searing is just for the Maillard reaction creating a browned crust on the outside, adding flavour. Any additional heating beyond that just increases the size of the transition between (hot) brown crust outside and…

By a couple of minutes I meant ~60 seconds a side - basically just leave it on long enough to get the level of Maillard browning my guests like. This is one of those things that helps to have all the guests crowd around while you do this as they can then tell you when to take it off the grill. Yum!

Re: Bringing Sous Vide to the Home Cook

#59
post #54
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I addressed in the other comment, yes, indeed, this is a technique built for traffic spikes. It is not a technique made for cooking breakfast. As to steak, just to be clear (since there seems to be a lot of misinformation in here), the best New York City steakhouses grill steaks in a 1800 degree broiler. This is a heat that is difficult to obtain at home, so the sear+oven actually yields a wonderful, very uniform…

That's a funny bit of message board aggression. Suggesting someone on a cooking thread about cooking steak that someone has never tried cooking a steak in a pan.

Recall that you were the one who first said that I am an "enemy of quality". Somehow on HN your smiley-disclaimed trolls -- posts that are almost always the "enemy of quality" -- get a pass. So yes, accept it as some aggression: When you dare pass judgment on my opinions in such a vapid, haughty way, expect a negative response.

Re: Bringing Sous Vide to the Home Cook

#60
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is somewhat fascinating how much the tech community seems to strive to try to solve non-problems. In this case, poaching or hard boiling an egg is so utterly simple, done in mere minutes, that it is simply impossible that this device could make it easier. And the grotesque proposed waste of energy borders on the absurd. And then, after you've had your perfectly cooked eggs that you presumably had to hop out of bed…

> And then, after you've had your perfectly cooked eggs that you presumably had to hop out of bed and rush to retrieve before they overcooked, But they won't overcook. That's the point of sous vide. It heats the water temperature to a very specific point. The food will heat throughout until it's uniformly at that temperature. A few minutes extra won't make any difference because it's the temperature that determines t…

Boiling water is 100 degrees Celsius and egg-white denatures at what, 40-45C? So your eggs will overcook, the sous-vide ones won't.

This, along with the comments about cooking a steak (where you are simply wrong), seem to assume that when you put a cooler item in a hotter substance, boom, it's the temperature of the hotter substance. It turns out that reality doesn't quite work this way.

An egg, for instance, happens to not only have an insulative shell, it's a liquid with a very high level of heat conductivity. When you put an egg in boiling water, the inside heats at a relatively uniform rate, which is exactly how we have concepts like the 6 minute egg. It incidentally turns out that the yolk sets at a higher temperature than the whites, which is how people who want firm whites and a liquidy yolk can achieve their goals, traditionally by timing (boiling water at a given altitude is fairly consistent).

The similar concept applies to the steak. A quick sear at high heat (500F+) does almost nothing to cook the inside of the steak -- the heat differential is far too high for it to migrate far through the thick protein layers, but when put in the 200F oven the differential is so low that in that case it does have time to essentially "even out" slowly. You sear first primarily because a room temperature, salted steak sears far better and more quickly than a heated, steaming piece of meat.

No, you don't wait until the item is 200F. That is absurdity. Personally I use a remote meat thermometer but other people simply go by wisdom and time. Any notion that I have to have the external temperature match what I want the internal temperature to be is...well...it's just scientifically ignorant.

Exactly as you said, it is all science and chemistry. And you seem to be coming at this as if the steak is a piece of copper. Indeed, I think this whole "cooking better" infatuation of the tech community is an attempt to (much like with NoSQL and a desire not to bother with that old DB knowledge) essentially try to skip the whole learning the basics thing, and then to paradoxically try to pretend that one's knowledge is a step above. I've seen several comically wrong comments along this line now.

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