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Ask HN: Can we talk about FreeBSD vs. Linux?

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Re: Ask HN: Can we talk about FreeBSD vs. Linux?

#31
I started using FreeBSD (version 4.8 at the time) in 2003 and I began a switch to Ubuntu in around 2011.

Disclaimer: the following is all very opinionated and 8.1 is the last version of FreeBSD I actively used. Actually, it's still running without any problems on a colocated machine, but it's a bit a "don't touch it" situation, because upgrading even a single piece of software would probably cause a cataclysm of struggle. So I don't touch it (except for the occasional move of something to an Ubuntu vps), but it works like a charm. I've tried version 10 in a virtual machine because it had a new installer, but it was not the best experience ever (FreeBSD's x.0 versions have always been better to skip, the x.1s were fine though). FreeBSD really needed a new installer and they did some great work, but it did not yet feel very solid. On the other hand, I've had to restart the Ubuntu installer often enough as well and I have a love/hate relationship with both of them.

Okay, let's hit it.

FreeBSD: it's clean, it's minimal. It's very good for learning *NIX stuff because you will have to do a lot of configuration yourself. What they do is very well done and I'd say it's hard to break it. Jails are very cool (OS level virtualization), but like everything else in the FreeBSD world, it's quite some work to maintain. If it runs, it runs and will keep on running basically forever. If you want to upgrade stuff, brace, brace. The ports tree was amazing back in the day, but has been overtaken by stuff like apt-get. Installation of bash used to be like this: cd /usr/ports/shells/bash && make install clean. And then, depending on your hardware and de ports dependencies, minutes or hours of waiting on the compilation. You can upgrade your base to any version without having to fear. You fetch a specific version, compile all the things (again, that is a lot of waiting), run mergemaster to fix up your configurations, reboot and you're back. FreeBSD isn't very cutting edge on the level of hardware support, but it comes with OpenBSD packet filter which is the best firewall ever, it's very powerful yet easy to setup. Also, the zfs support is awesome. That file system is truly amazing, very flexible and serious about data integrity. It's cool until it breaks though, 'cause you'll be diving deep in obscure Solaris documentation and just praying to get your data back. But, I had zfs on an external USB drive and you just shouldn't do that. With built-in drives you'll probably be very safe with zfs. To sum it up: if you're patient, care about technology and have a lot of time, FreeBSD is truly a marvellous operating system that will never let you down. It's solid stuff and it's serious, but it is an investment.

Ubuntu: as someone who started with FreeBSD, Linux always felt a bit messy to me. We, the FreeBSD users at the time, used to make fun of Linux guys saying they have scripts for everything. And in some way I still think that's true. ;) The scripts in init.d very often have 'issues'. Ubuntu does a lot of stuff for you automatically. Installation of software couldn't be much easier and many times there's not much to configure. A 'disadvantage' is that you don't have to spend a lot of time figuring out how the software does and what all it's options are, it just works. The way configuration files are organised is pretty neat, with almost everything in it's own dir in /etc/ and foo.d dirs for adding extra options in small config files. (This is very contrary to FreeBSD, where you have one big /etc/rc.conf to configure the stuff that starts when booting and where you can define extra parameters for the software. There's /etc/ for configuring the base system and /usr/local/etc/ for placing files for software that's not in base.) When you're used to pf, iptables is just shit (but ufw helps a lot). It's such a struggle to configure.

So why did I switch from FreeBSD to Ubuntu? Reason number one is because the place where I started working had done that. I really loved FreeBSD and I didn't really had that feeling towards Linux, but using Linux in day to day life is just a lot easier. It's more common, most people use Linux so you don't have to do 'BSD specific stuff'. Also, I loved doing all the configuration stuff years back, but I know how it's done now and I mostly just want my stuff to work without spending hours on configuration and maintenance. You can do that with one FreeBSD server without any problem, but when you have to manage around 50 servers, it becomes quite a thing. Installing a new kernel on an Ubuntu server or upgrading software is super easy and you don't have to wait for hours because you don't have to compile all the stuff.

To conclude, I'd say: just give FreeBSD a try, it's never a bad idea to have a look at what others do. I just wouldn't advise rolling it out to lots of servers, unless you have a very specific reason to do so.

Re: Ask HN: Can we talk about FreeBSD vs. Linux?

#32

This book came out a few months ago, may be a good springboard if you're interested in learning how FreeBSD works under the hood. From what I understand, the first edition of this book is highly regarded. http://smile.amazon.com/Design-Implementation-FreeBSD-Operat...

That's an incredible book if you want to understand the core of the various BSD kernels (obviously it's best for FreeBSD). It's the latest descendant of "The Design and Implementation of the 4.3BSD UNIX Operating System" which he wrote in 1989, a series of books that are justly famous. McKusick has been involved with the BSDs since he was Bill Joy's officemate and I'm pretty sure wrote the first fsck and most of the first usable filesystem for BSD. The filesystems section of the 4.4BSD version of the book was a fascinating read. He's also the guy responsible for the little red BSD daemon.

McKusick and his partner Eric Allman (sendmail & syslog) are the kind of older open source developers who're famous to Unix people and more Unix-inclined Linux people, but aren't as well known now as Stallman or de Raadt, say. Even now there's a high chance than any human being using the net has had their email, IM, or web traffic pass through software written by either of them.

Re: Ask HN: Can we talk about FreeBSD vs. Linux?

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the other hand, I do love how small and unassuming a basic Linux installation is There is no "basic linux installation". Every distro is its own thing. Size seems like a really odd thing to bring up since every mainstream linux distro's "basic" installation is larger than the full OS of any of the four BSDs.

So your contention is that there is no basic installation... followed by the assertion that the basic installation, which does not exist, is larger than that of any BSD. Sorry, I'm going to have a hard time taking this seriously. And, frankly, your statement about the "full OS" is meaningless, as unless you consider the "full OS" to be only the base system, it includes every possible package, which very obviously is…

There is a huge amount more than a kernel and a shell in a Linux distro. There is of course a package manager, which is usually written in python. There are all the utils to configure hardware and file systems (mkfs, mount, raid, ip, etc). The minimal Ubuntu is 63MB compressed[1], although it is not strictly comparable with a BSD base, as the BSDs include compilers in the base system.

[1] http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2014/08/re-introducing-jeos-j...

Re: Ask HN: Can we talk about FreeBSD vs. Linux?

#34
post #27

Like others have said, being unbiased is difficult, but I'll try. First, Linux v FreeBSD is really tough, so I will instead approach this from Debian v FreeBSD. I really like how easy Debian on the desktop is: install it, apt-get install xfce, and I have a nice desktop. It's very easy to add Adobe Flash, Steam, Skype, etc. The FreeBSD desktop isn't as nice. You can add things like Flash and Skype on FreeBSD, but you…

I may be confused since I'm only now moving some servers to FreeBSD, but it sounds like you're suggesting freebsd-update brings in bleeding age, incompatible version if you want to get security fixes. Is that actually the case? I've got zero interest in running it as a desktop so I'm guessing that'll hit me less, but it's worrisome to hear.

As a side note, I'd love to have something like "freebsd-update rollback" for most Linux distros. I've seen attempts at it, but the only one that worked well for me was openSUSE integration of btrfs snapshots and the package manager. That's kind of swatting a fly with the complete works of Knuth, but it did the job.

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/updating-upgrading-freeb...

Re: Ask HN: Can we talk about FreeBSD vs. Linux?

#35
post #25

I have few experience with Linux distros other than Ubuntu, so I'm only comparing FreeBSD with Ubuntu. Linux distros are so diverse I don't think you can just compare all of them with FreeBSD anyway. I have both FreeBSD servers and Ubuntu servers. Thing I like the most with FreeBSD is its further separation (compared with Ubuntu) of OS (kernel and world) from third-party software. In Ubuntu every package comes in mul…

Wait what? You are stating an Ubuntu thing about versions that are non-specific to Linux and to a Distro. Rolling release distros (Arch Linux, OpenSUSE Tumbleweed, and Gentoo. n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_release I like BSD but I prefer Linux BOTH are good. BSD is just a different flavor of NIX.

Yeah, I know rolling release distros, though I haven't used any of them. Though I should have mentioned it.

Just put up a disclaimer.

I often hear stability issues with Tumbleweed, and even more complaints of software breaking after an upgrade (software upgrade, not OS upgrade) on ArchLinux. (I heard ArchLinux's philosophy is "fix it yourself")

So I guess you can get more stable bleeding edge software in FreeBSD than OpenSUSE Tumbleweed and ArchLinux. I don't know the case with Gentoo, I don't often hear things about it.

Re: Ask HN: Can we talk about FreeBSD vs. Linux?

#36
post #34
post #27

Like others have said, being unbiased is difficult, but I'll try. First, Linux v FreeBSD is really tough, so I will instead approach this from Debian v FreeBSD. I really like how easy Debian on the desktop is: install it, apt-get install xfce, and I have a nice desktop. It's very easy to add Adobe Flash, Steam, Skype, etc. The FreeBSD desktop isn't as nice. You can add things like Flash and Skype on FreeBSD, but you…

I may be confused since I'm only now moving some servers to FreeBSD, but it sounds like you're suggesting freebsd-update brings in bleeding age, incompatible version if you want to get security fixes. Is that actually the case? I've got zero interest in running it as a desktop so I'm guessing that'll hit me less, but it's worrisome to hear. As a side note, I'd love to have something like "freebsd-update rollback" for…

Not freebsd-update - Ports, the third-party package tree. There's no attempt made to create a "release branch" of Ports that gets kept up-to-date with security patches.

Re: Ask HN: Can we talk about FreeBSD vs. Linux?

#37

For those of us that are more interested in FreeBSD due to the whole Systemd 'controversy', look at the other HN link about the 'FreeBSD: the next 10 years' presentation. They clearly state that FreeBSD is in the same position and it seems that they are not hostile towards the concept of Systemd. Personally I hope that FreeBSD will choose a solution that does not involve QR codes (not mandatory).

Well the concept of "systemd" have been explored multiple times over the years. But only systemd found the "need" to sprout tentacles everywhere.

Re: Ask HN: Can we talk about FreeBSD vs. Linux?

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your contention is that there is no basic installation... followed by the assertion that the basic installation, which does not exist, is larger than that of any BSD. Sorry, I'm going to have a hard time taking this seriously. And, frankly, your statement about the "full OS" is meaningless, as unless you consider the "full OS" to be only the base system, it includes every possible package, which very obviously is…

There is a huge amount more than a kernel and a shell in a Linux distro. There is of course a package manager, which is usually written in python. There are all the utils to configure hardware and file systems (mkfs, mount, raid, ip, etc). The minimal Ubuntu is 63MB compressed[1], although it is not strictly comparable with a BSD base, as the BSDs include compilers in the base system. [1] http://blog.dustinkirkland.c…

Yeah... poorly phrased. I understand that there's more than a kernel and a shell; I started with Gentoo and worked quite a bit with RedHat/CentOS/Fedora before moving to Ubuntu and then to Debian.

The point was that what you get without selecting or installing anything else via a package manager is still apparently far less than what you get with a "base install" from a BSD (at least according to the article) and that that starting point is what I'm used to.

Re: Ask HN: Can we talk about FreeBSD vs. Linux?

#39
post #27

Like others have said, being unbiased is difficult, but I'll try. First, Linux v FreeBSD is really tough, so I will instead approach this from Debian v FreeBSD. I really like how easy Debian on the desktop is: install it, apt-get install xfce, and I have a nice desktop. It's very easy to add Adobe Flash, Steam, Skype, etc. The FreeBSD desktop isn't as nice. You can add things like Flash and Skype on FreeBSD, but you…

What stopped me from using FreeBSD a year ago was lack of automatic tab completion on the shell.

I would like to try FreeBSD again. Does anyone know if this works now?

edit: clarified the reason I ask is because I want to know.

Re: Ask HN: Can we talk about FreeBSD vs. Linux?

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge amount more than a kernel and a shell in a Linux distro. There is of course a package manager, which is usually written in python. There are all the utils to configure hardware and file systems (mkfs, mount, raid, ip, etc). The minimal Ubuntu is 63MB compressed[1], although it is not strictly comparable with a BSD base, as the BSDs include compilers in the base system. [1] http://blog.dustinkirkland.c…

Yeah... poorly phrased. I understand that there's more than a kernel and a shell; I started with Gentoo and worked quite a bit with RedHat/CentOS/Fedora before moving to Ubuntu and then to Debian. The point was that what you get without selecting or installing anything else via a package manager is still apparently far less than what you get with a "base install" from a BSD (at least according to the article) and tha…

Gentoo is probably the most similar, as it has enough to bootstrap the system in the base (stage3), which is not surprising as it was modelled on BSD ports to a large extent. Although the BSDs will also include a debugger too. Linuxes generally got pretty hard to bootstrap reliably though, nad had binary packages earlier, which was where things diverged in base systems.

NetBSD takes bootstrapping most seriously - you can cross build it on any system with a vaguely functional C compiler, and it will bootstrap completely.

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