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Systemd redux: The end of Linux

blog.lusis.org

361–370 of 464 posts

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we are veering dangerously close to Godwin's Law : not only is Lennart and systemd evil, but everyone who agreed or contributed to it.

Sievers appears to be an unreasonable dick. Gunderson announces to the world that systemd's DHCP client is pretty damn cool. In the same post, he puts out a call for interested volunteers. Ted Lemon (the author and maintainer of ISC DHCP from its inception to 2003 [0]) asks for the location of the project's source repo. Sievers replies with a LMGTFY link that doesn't even answer Lemon's question. Lemon politely criti…

What you've just mentioned here is what scares me most about systemd. Not its tight coupling, not its bugs, not its philosophy - all of these things are arguable and in most cases fixable.

The project being run by people who hold unreasonable and downright odious views who act like, frankly, utter asshats, is a much more serious problem.

The Kay/Linus debacle is something you can expect to see more of from these fine folks going forward. Mark my words. Ask yourself if you want software developed this way running your OS.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#362
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or stop using Linux entirely and move to FreeBSD.

Linux Torvalds said he would never have created Linux is FreeBSD was available at the time. And the only reason it wasn't available is because it was embroiled in a lawsuit over embedded ATT UNIX code back in the 1990s(?).

And if Linux weren't available, Lennart would most likely be working on systemd for BSD. Whether or not he would be successful in getting it adopted there is unknowable, but it would be possible.

This is why choice is good, and lock-in is so bad.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#363

Perhaps this is a controversial idea, but is this not just someone finally taking the tried and true Open Source "advice" to heart? That is, every time I've reported something is broken, wonky, doesn't work reliably, et cetera, I've been told, "Submit a patch.", "Write some code.", or worse, "Implement it yourself." Someone finally got fed up with the haphazard state of affairs in Linux-land. Fed up with the fragment…

> Why else would nearly every distribution be on board?

This informal fallacy is based on the idea that everything in the world can be distilled to a single answer. The real answer is more complicated. For example:

Red Hat is on board because they pay its creator's salary. So they rely on an individual bias.

Debian is on board because they rely upon 'collective wisdom' and committees to make decisions. So they rely on the bias of group thinking.

Ubuntu is on board because Debian is on board. So they rely on the bias of the other.

Other distributions are using it because 'every other distribution is using it', or they're small enough that it doesn't cause conflicts for its use base, or because it's a GNOME dependency, or because it's just new technology.

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To make someone think something is a good idea, show them someone else thinks it's a good idea. This is a fact of all human beings' thought processes. Decisions are not based on merit, or logic, or even a quorum; it is based on fallacies created by heuristics. There exists a heuristic in which the more an idea is adopted, the more other people think it is a good idea.

We imagine our thoughts are logical, and that other people also think logically, and that their decisions must be made for a good reason. But in fact, the great majority of all decisions we make are based on guesses; this is how our brains are able to carry out complex calculations and come to decisions in split-seconds.

For example, you might look at systemd and say, "it fixes so many problems! it provides so many features! it standardizes Linux! CLEARLY this is superior. we must adopt it."

For people who care about the purity of the highest technical ideals, this makes sense. For people who care about being able to use their computer, these things don't matter, and in the systemd implementation, actually makes things worse for them. The changes systemd purports to make are not bad things. It's really just the way in which they did it that is bad.

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It's like wanting to upgrade your bicycle to four wheels, but requiring the rider now operate it lying flat down and using mirrors to navigate. The four wheels was a great idea. Using mirrors to navigate? Maybe not so great.

Of course, its creators will turn this inconvenience into a feature, saying "you get to lay down! it's therefore more efficient and easier to use!", completely ignoring how other people want to ride a 4-wheeler.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#364
post #326

He rants about systemd, then talks about liking CoreOS, which uses systemd for everything. He is contradicting himself, but I'm genuinely not sure of why.

Read it again: Author is saying that CoreOS is a good solution because you use it with heavily isolated containers . Thus, any use of systemd is unable to screw up hosted applications. For that use case, it makes sense, whereas in more general use, systemd wants to get all up in everything.

He responds to that here as well: http://blog.lusis.org/blog/2014/11/21/a-few-things/

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone created a new account in order to post a pro-windows reply in a systemd thread. Color me surprised.

Sigh. Read my other posts. And my account existed before the systemd article was posted. More correctly. Someone assumed a new user was a shill for Microsoft, incorrectly... Reading your history, you might want to lay off the weed. It's linked to paranoia.

Nice, a personal attack at the end. I'll definitely not call you a shill now!

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this comment even mean? What's wrong with them as a group?

To borrow a quote from a popular movie: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

I think this is trying to say you are as strong as the weakest link? Maybe it's trying to say something about group think.

I mean all these movie quotes are all cool sounding but are quite shallow.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#367
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is a perceived lack of this kind of humility in systemd that has been so alienating for those who have a long history with Unix: it's not as if other approaches are being rejected so much as they are not being considered at all. I really have the feeling that people are using double standards here, especially when suggesting Solaris or Solaris-derived systems. Since systemd is implementing pretty much what…

I want to know how this even became an argument in the first place. It's not that I don't like systemd, it's that [insert affiliated party] is way too cocky It blows my mind to see people regress so far back into arguments that this because an issue of emotions in a technical debate.

LOL. Exactly. When you don't have any good response based on the merits of the argument, attack the presentation. This tactic is very familiar to those of us who call out sexism or racism: "You should be nicer when asking for your problems to be taken seriously."

But, ultimately, what happens in tech is as much about people and personalities as it is about actual technical merit. To delude ourselves otherwise is dangerous. When someone claims to be arguing from technical merit, look very closely at their history and probable motivations. There's always more there.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To borrow a quote from a popular movie: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

I think this is trying to say you are as strong as the weakest link? Maybe it's trying to say something about group think. I mean all these movie quotes are all cool sounding but are quite shallow.

Answer: Yes.

Just because some thought has to go into the interpretation does't make it shallow.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#369
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you get UNIX-haters? I read systemd haters which begets Linux haters but UNIX? No. Besides, Linux is no longer a UNIX-like system. Linux is now only Linux unto itself with UNIX-similarities.

Just look at this very thread - there are numerous posts trashing the "old ways" of UNIX. It has been a common thread throughout the systemd mess. Lennart himself is very strongly outspoken against any use of shell scripting (not just in init).

Sigh. Obligatory reference to http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html:

"Myth: systemd is incompatible with shell scripts. This is entirely bogus. We just don't use them for the boot process, because we believe they aren't the best tool for that specific purpose, but that doesn't mean systemd was incompatible with them. You can easily run shell scripts as systemd services, heck, you can run scripts written in any language as systemd services, systemd doesn't care the slightest bit what's inside your executable. Moreover, we heavily use shell scripts for our own purposes, for installing, building, testing systemd. And you can stick your scripts in the early boot process, use them for normal services, you can run them at latest shutdown, there are practically no limits."

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#370
post #33
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah we need to go back to when distro A and B had totally different versions of everything since it was so much work to get things working. Now we are close to having a OS where you can seriously just expect anything "Linux" to just run. Bad I guess to some :P

Seriously, once the systemd convergence is over, I can finally start advocating Ubuntu on workstations everywhere because it will finally have commonality with server infrastructure. The last frontier after that is package format convergence, and Lennart has said repeatedly he intends to use the systemd monoculture to push a common package format, which is a really good thing for me. Right now I have most clients run…

I also run OpenSUSE and I think that zypper is best in class and the OpenSUSE Build Service is the killer app for SUSE and I don't know why these are not such a HUGE seller of SUSE servers????

With OpenSUSE Build Service what does Debian server get you? Just wondering.

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