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Is Food the New Sex? (2009)

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Re: Is Food the New Sex? (2009)

#71
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only really need 1 counterexample to disprove a theory. The reality is prostitution is still illegal in the vast majority of the US which is a clear sign of a deeply repressed culture. However, TV and video game ratings are another. As is the fairly common ban on breastfeeding in public let alone a lack of nude beaches. And the list just keeps getting longer.

> You only really need 1 counterexample to disprove a theory. No. Don't be absurd. By and large the conversation people are having here is meaningful because we're talking about the extent to which people (mostly american citizens of the age of majority in this case) face substantial constraints to doing what they want, constraints which are imposed on them by a third party against their will. If your counterexamples…

It's illegal for a religious institution to fire someone based on their race. But, we don't protect their sexual activity in the same way so it is a 100% relevant example that on its own disproves the idea. (End of debate let's move on.)

The only reason I bring up culture is to demonstrate the point is not just slightly wrong, but clearly into the realm of absurdity. However, I fear this is one of those cases where simply debating the point seems to elevate the counter point from absurdity into some 'debatable' category for reasonable ideas.

PS: If we had moved on the idea of a 26 way gay marriage between Hollywood celebrities lasting for 1 day of drunken revelry would not even raise eyebrows.

Re: Is Food the New Sex? (2009)

#72
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, I couldn't get through the essay because I fundamentally disagreed with it. You say your memories of the 1950s are in agreement with it. I point out multiple examples from that era which show it isn't the case. I trust copies of literature from that era better than I do memories of childhood. I know how distorted my own memories of childhood were compared to the reality of the 1970s. Here's another: http…

I didn't get all the way through your post because I fundamentally disagreed with it. > I trust copies of literature from that era better than I do memories of childhood. You're doing it wrong! :) Really. "Literature" that specifies what people should eat is likely pulp (a class of literature). You can't gain any information about my diet--or even the average diet--by flipping through the magazine racks at the grocer…

I have an autobiographical essay by someone written in around 2001. It says X about something that happened in the 1960s. I have a paper written by the same person in 1964. It says not X.

That's evidence that people's memory fades or changes over time. Of course that's well known. For example, "Not only are our memories faulty (anyone who has uncovered old diaries knows that), but more importantly Schiller says our memories change each time they are recalled. What we recall is only a facsimile of things gone by.", from http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/am-i-right/201307/your-m... .

I have printed menu suggestions, restaurant menus, and pictures and movies from the 1950s which say that "meat and two veg" was far more common than just potatoes.

Certainly it's not indicative of anyone's specific diet. Certainly it may be true for the OP's history. But if the only "fresh" vegetable on a typical dinner was potato, why are there so many non-potatoes vegetables in those pictures of 1950s grocery stores?

Recall too that the original essay discusses a hypothetical diet of the 1950s, and a comparison to a hypothetical one now. There are not that many vegetarians now for the modern example to be representative of a general modern trend, and I pointed out that vegetarianism was also part of general culture of the 1950s. The essay is therefore an artificially constructed and I argue essentially meaningless comparison.

Here's a perhaps atypical diary entry from 1954 for a farewell dinner, http://annbkennedy.blogspot.se/2013/04/june-29-30-1954-farew...:

> Long menu in courses--celery, etc., soup, then small lobsters with rice, filet mignon, gr. beans, mushrooms, then asparagus salad, peach melba, coffee & fruit.

That's yet another piece of evidence that says that many people ate dinner with fresh vegetables other than potato.

(To be fair, in winter it would be hard to get fresh veg. But the essay is using fresh veg as a proxy for food surplus, and it's better to look at food surplus directly. Otherwise it makes no sense to say that King Louis XIV of France, deprived of fresh peas in winter, is somehow food impoverished.)

Re: Is Food the New Sex? (2009)

#73
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not to follow a fad who lasts a short time (which is essential to cargo culting). Cargo cults are groups who follow rituals they don't understand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult If a group is following a diet without understanding it, I think it's apt (though perhaps needlessly divisive) to call that group a cargo cult. If someone doesn't eat gluten and can't describe what gluten is and why it's bad , he o…

Thanks for bringing this up for the people who aren't familiar with the history of the term. In my opinion, "cargo cult" is overused and overly specific. We have a perfectly good word for these kinds of behaviors, i.e. "superstition"

Yeah, superstition works most of the time. Though the things that cargo-culters do usually make sense given the right context. Many superstitions (black cats, ladders, lucky socks, and unlucky numbers) have no rationality in any situation.

Re: Is Food the New Sex? (2009)

#74
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife has a friend who is very into organic. She says that all those pesticides are not good for us, and she's probably right, at least to some degree. But the thing is, famine is really not good for you. If pesticides prevent that (and, arguably, they have done pretty well at doing so), then they're better than the alternative of not using them. Of course, the best alternative is "neither"...

Of course eating non-organic produce is better than eating no produce at all. Eating only organic is a straw man position.

For an individual, sure. For a society, no, that's not a strawman at all.

Re: Is Food the New Sex? (2009)

#75

These issues are simpler to explain than the author realizes--and without any special invocation of Kant. Simply put, technology has made sex a lot safer at the same time as it has made food a lot more dangerous . Sex is safer (in the sense of creating fewer risks and uncertainties), as we all know, thanks to developments like condoms, STD testing, contraception, and legalized abortion. Meanwhile, food is a lot more…

> Hence we get ridiculous cargo cults like gluten-free, organic, anti-GMO, everything Dr. Oz pushes As a 20-something in the US, you're certainly very uninformed. Gluten free, organic and anti-gmo have nothing to do with cargo cults and food fanatism. Essentially nobody buys gluten-free products because they're gluten free (except who needs it). GF products are a very little minority, because the lack of gluten is a…

"Nobody turns "gluten-free" unless he has to."

That's demonstrably untrue. The existence of non-Celiac gluten sensitivity is not demonstrated by science. It is a clear example of the "nocebo" effect. I know lots of people eating gluten free because they believe they have to...but, there's no reason to believe that's true.

Specifically, the research team that first posited gluten sensitivity followed up with a more comprehensive study, and found: "On current evidence the existence of the entity of NCGS remains unsubstantiated". And, "Recent randomized controlled re-challenge trials have suggested that gluten may worsen gastrointestinal symptoms, but failed to confirm patients with self-perceived NCGS have specific gluten sensitivity."

Reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24026574 (Though I can't find a full article text online for free, Googling about this study will find pretty good summaries of it, and that's where I found one of the quotes above.)

Re: Is Food the New Sex? (2009)

#76
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the whole thing, and am also quite disturbed. I also had the feeling that while there is a some discussion surrounding food, an awful lot of small jabs are made at people's sexual views. There is a repeated point driven accros that people of this area are morally depleted, in difference to previous generations. It's summed up in the introduction statement: > * things we might signal by shorthand as mindful eat…

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the article, why would you assume either way? I think she's got some very interesting points but I'm more inclined to think the phenomenon she addresses has more to do with humanity's newfound ability to work their way up Maslow's hierarchy, and the issues we encounter while society evolves away from trying to reduce risks (i.e. stockpile this food so we have something to eat duri…

There have always been people at the top of Maslow's hierarchy. I gave as an example the aristocracy of the 1600s.

I gave as another example JFK, whose many affairs were well known, but never tut-tutted as much as, say, the teenager in high school who suddenly had to visit with family out of state for 8 months.

One of my stereotypes is that that conservatives tend to not analyze history as an oppressive patriarchy where social structures are set up to reinforce certain discriminatory behavior.

Do you disagree with that characterization of most conservative analysis?

I think it's an important factor. I quoted another essay which goes into why those are important factors. Since the essay did not address them (that I could tell), I thought it was lacking.

Re: Is Food the New Sex? (2009)

#77
post #59

> She also buys “organic” in the belief that it is better both for her and for the animals raised in that way, even though the products are markedly more expensive than those from the local grocery store. Is anyone really eating organic food because of a perceived health benefit anymore? Everyone I know who eats organic (myself included) is doing for the sake of environmental consciousness or animal welfare not perso…

If you feel the need to downvote this, I think an explanation is in order... Perhaps your answer to my question is "Yes, I do eat organic food because of a perceived health benefit." If that's the case, a response would be more appropriate...

Re: Is Food the New Sex? (2009)

#78

How much of this is more easily explained in that Betty is conservative and her granddaughter Jennifer is liberal? Jonathan Haidt's TED talk on the moral roots of liberals and conservatives touches on sex and food (see time index 7:09): http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind If there is a shift in the decades in common cultural attitudes, it might be explained by a general pendulum swing back and f…

My family is conservative and holds more traditional views about sex, family, and religion than most, yet is caught up in the obsession with healthy eating just as much as its liberal counterparts. That's what makes this interesting from my perspective: attitudes about food have changed dramatically across social boundaries and political boundaries, to a greater degree than even our attitudes about sex. You don't hav…

Food has often been treated that as a status symbol. Being overweight was historically an indication of wealth. The poor could not afford much food, and were sometimes prohibited from certain foods.

Caligula famously threw a banquet once consisting of thousands of flamingo tongues, camel heels, and roast ostrich. Quoting from http://archive.archaeology.org/0111/abstracts/romans.html :

> Eating well was not just a daily ritual, it was a philosophy and a way of life in Imperial Rome. Your reputation and acceptance in the upper echelons of society was often determined by your abilities as a generous host and as a connoisseur.

"Healthy eating", as the essay observes, has a long history in the US. Kellogg started the Battle Creek Sanitarium in the 1860s. Quoting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Creek_Sanitarium, Kellogg "encouraged a low-fat, low-protein diet with an emphasis on whole grains, fiber-rich foods, and most importantly, nuts. Kellogg also recommended a daily intake of fresh air, exercise, and the importance of hygiene. Many of the theories of John Harvey Kellogg were later published in his book The Road to Wellness."

> Battle Creek utilised information as known at that time to provide nutritional requirements for health and well-being relative to each person's requirements. Food required careful prescriptive preparation, with care also taken to ensure appetiveness and palatability were recognised. The diet lists included "scores of special dishes and hundreds of special food preparations, each of which has been carefully studied in relation to its nutritive and therapeutic properties", with the diet lists used "by the physicians in arranging the diet prescriptions of individual patients".

You may know Kellogg better as the producer of corn flakes.

Diet was also used as social distinction. As a clear example, Italian Americans brought with them a love of garlic, which wasn't popular in the US. A xenophobic slur was to call someone of Italian food heritage a "garlic eater." See http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/archive/index.php/t-224620.... for an example:

> In 1960 "we had become truly one nation and one people"?!?!? Really??? You want to tell that to the millions of blacks under Jim Crow laws...government sanctioned institutional RACISM. Holy Jesus! Pat has now lost any semblance of that honesty I gave him.

> Then he distorts history, leaving out the rank "racism" that the Irish...German...Italians...Poles...Jews and "other Eastern Europeans" suffered when they came to this country. My God...I felt first hand the prejudice and rank hatred directed toward Italians we'll into the 80's. Most notably, by the father of a woman I was seeing. He was a WASP, and he left no doubt that my Italian heritage made me a low life. He derisively called me "garlic eater" and let it be known that his daughter was too good for a Dago like me.

Re: Is Food the New Sex? (2009)

#79

How much of this is more easily explained in that Betty is conservative and her granddaughter Jennifer is liberal? Jonathan Haidt's TED talk on the moral roots of liberals and conservatives touches on sex and food (see time index 7:09): http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind If there is a shift in the decades in common cultural attitudes, it might be explained by a general pendulum swing back and f…

> How much of this is more easily explained in that Betty is conservative and her granddaughter Jennifer is liberal? Perhaps the author is trying to explore why they prototypical conservative believes one way and the prototypical liberal believes another. I'm not sure just calling one "conservative" and the other "liberal" really explains anything.

I don't think it does explain much. It could be that Betty is a poor Lithuanian immigrant living in the slums of NYC in the 1960s, and Jennifer has converted to Buddhism, but doesn't always follow the vegetarianism aspect of the religion.

The problem with the example is that "Betty is much like any other American home cook in 1958" hides the diversity of America. Had Betty been living in New Mexico, there would be green chile on the plate. Had Betty been living in Louisiana then the food would be different still.

But by given simple hypothetical examples it's all too easy for us to fill in the details with what we think are the right answers.

Re: Is Food the New Sex? (2009)

#80
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sterile meat? Yuk! Why would someone want sterile meat? The best beef for example has been tenderized by bacteria for several weeks before being butchered. There's maybe a couple dozen kinds of bacteria that pose a threat, the vast majority are either benign or good for us. Attempting to eliminate food danger can paradoxically increase the danger. If you go to a grocery in Europe you'll see eggs sitting on shelves in…

> Why would someone want sterile meat? Maybe because they've had a nasty encounter with food poisoning? > I'd suggest that sterile meat is more dangerous as it is devoid of the natural bacterial "cloak" that provides protection from the nasty bugs. I'd like to see a reference to a scientific study that demonstrated that.

I can understand that one might seek sterile meat after a bad experience, but unless they went CSI on everywhere they were for the time around the incident they cannot know exactly what the source of the poisoning was. It might have been a doorknob at work that was contaminated by someone who didn't wash their hands and had contaminated fecal matter on their hands. Deciding henceforth to only eat sterile meat would not solve that problem.
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