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Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf]

franken.senate.gov

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Re: Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf]

#101
post #64
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "low barrier to entry" is repeated on every Uber story and I don't get it. It's a business with a very strong network effects: you need both sides of the market because without drivers, users are not interested and without users drivers are not interested. Uber seems to have a big lead over competition here, is growing like crazy and they raised insane amounts of capital so that they can grow faster than competit…

> you need a great iOS app > you need a great Android app Neither of these is rocket surgery. Good devs can create an app very quickly, especially if your directions are "clone this other app." > you need a backed that is both fast and has rock solid 24/7 reliability. it can't be like Twitter in early days So you need something that isn't node + redis + mongo + riak running heroku through cloudflare. This is also qui…

Nice theory you have there but Uber uses Node.js.

Re: Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf]

#102

So, I completely agree with this letter, but I felt a sense of unease reading it. I realized why. Other companies are as bad or worse about privacy, where are all those letters? I wish there were a lot more of these and wonder if the only reason this one exists is because the blowup with Uber was so visible and so it can be used for political posturing.

An effective free press is part of the foundation of democracy. From my perspective, this is as bad as Uber going after politicians, regulators, or activists. Other companies may be as bad, but I don't think their badness is as dangerous.

Re: Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf]

#103
post #50
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're saying, but there are two things that make this more egregious than other (assumed) offenses. First, Uber did this brazenly and, one could argue, openly. Their hubris needs to be curbed this way. Second, Uber explicitly wanted to go after a member of the press. The press is our shield against all the evil that is done against the public by governments and corporations. We need our journalists to fee…

First, Uber did this brazenly and, one could argue, openly The reported quote was couched in the hypothetical; reported out of an 'off the record' private event; by a reporter that was the +1 of an invite. Those are major caveats. While they don't excuse anything, they also (frankly) answer several of the senators questions. I find it un-imaginable that Franken (or anyone) has never articulated views in the hypotheti…

> The reported quote was couched in the hypothetical; reported out of an 'off the record' private event; by a reporter that was the +1 of an invite.

"Off the record" isn't some magic phrase you can use to stop a journalist from reporting what you say.

It's a carefully constructed agreement between a source and a journalist. That agreement will cover what material is divulged and how it is sourced.

It is wrong to suggest that this meeting was "off the record".

Re: Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf]

#104
post #50
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're saying, but there are two things that make this more egregious than other (assumed) offenses. First, Uber did this brazenly and, one could argue, openly. Their hubris needs to be curbed this way. Second, Uber explicitly wanted to go after a member of the press. The press is our shield against all the evil that is done against the public by governments and corporations. We need our journalists to fee…

First, Uber did this brazenly and, one could argue, openly The reported quote was couched in the hypothetical; reported out of an 'off the record' private event; by a reporter that was the +1 of an invite. Those are major caveats. While they don't excuse anything, they also (frankly) answer several of the senators questions. I find it un-imaginable that Franken (or anyone) has never articulated views in the hypotheti…

> The reported quote was couched in the hypothetical; reported out of an 'off the record' private event; by a reporter that was the +1 of an invite.

The man laid out a detailed plan to harm reporters while talking to reporters. That it's hypothetical doesn't matter. If a mob boss told journalists about how easy it would be to make journalists disappear, that it was hypothetical and off the record wouldn't matter.

Senior executives of zillion-dollar companies do not accidentally talk to journalists. It could be that the guy is just a total idiot. But when otherwise smart people do something apparently stupid that just happens to serve their interests, it's reasonable to think that it was entirely intentional.

Re: Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf]

#105

This is officially the most blown-out-of-proportion story in the history of the Internet. When was the last time the US Senate got involved after you went on a rant at a party? I'm certain that Sarah Lacy is enjoying both the attention and the money from pageviews, but this is getting ridiculous.

Not that it isn't overblown, but you must have missed out on a lot of history if you think this is the most overblown story on the internet.

Re: Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf]

#106

So, I completely agree with this letter, but I felt a sense of unease reading it. I realized why. Other companies are as bad or worse about privacy, where are all those letters? I wish there were a lot more of these and wonder if the only reason this one exists is because the blowup with Uber was so visible and so it can be used for political posturing.

Uber management was successfully trolled by the media, so now the political class is interested. Had they kept their nose down and remained silent there would be little to no outcry.

Re: Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf]

#107
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the condescending tone is necessary—there are actually about ten million links if you spell organization correctly. https://www.google.com/search?q=%22People%2C+Organisation%2C... EDIT: Removed quotes.

While the condescending tone is unnecessary, logicallee is right. There are actually zero links, Google just removes the quotes and shows results for that. None of them seem to have all the words together or the acronym. Just random occurrences of words on the page, and it's predominantly military documents.

Actually, I'm seeing this comment page for the top link on Google for the search terms:

"People Organization Support Training Equipment Doctrine POSTED"

We DID IT! We made it a THING!

Re: Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf]

#108
post #46
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I don't think the condescending tone is necessary—there are actually about ten million links if you spell organization correctly. https://www.google.com/search?q=%22People%2C+Organisation%2C... EDIT: Removed quotes.

He did spell organisation correctly, just used British rather than of American English.

Re: Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf]

#110
post #103
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, Uber did this brazenly and, one could argue, openly The reported quote was couched in the hypothetical; reported out of an 'off the record' private event; by a reporter that was the +1 of an invite. Those are major caveats. While they don't excuse anything, they also (frankly) answer several of the senators questions. I find it un-imaginable that Franken (or anyone) has never articulated views in the hypotheti…

> The reported quote was couched in the hypothetical; reported out of an 'off the record' private event; by a reporter that was the +1 of an invite. "Off the record" isn't some magic phrase you can use to stop a journalist from reporting what you say. It's a carefully constructed agreement between a source and a journalist. That agreement will cover what material is divulged and how it is sourced. It is wrong to sugg…

This is dis-engenuous. One of the guests invited a tabloid reporter, did not appear to disclose the terms of the invitation to this person, and the result is predictable.

The ethical nuances here are lost because you have a sketchy company and an ethically challenged publication.

But in the same vein as the Mozilla incident, freedom of the press, nor freedom of speech...does not protect a citizen from another citizen.

If a muck-raking journalist wants to hide behind ethics to keep citizens from muck-rakin them, that's simply not protected by law or frankly by any real ethical consideration, other than the sense of moral proportionality that reflects their own behaviour.

It is a bizzarre point, but unfortunately its fundamentally correct.

The only "new" ethical consideration in this flap has to do with using specific information (presumably confidential company information) to bolster an attack. From what i've read, nobody suggested that this type of attack was only possible using a certain set of information.

Notwithstanding the distastefullness here, this is simply nothing that is not done in every major national election. So in that regard, the senator could equally send such a complaint to the DNCC.

What is actually the legitimate issue here is something much narrower: whether or not a malicious person would have the potential to abuse information that is not publicly available to do this.

That is very much a legit issue, but I'd be interested to see if the actual discussion would have been so bizaerre as to require this formulation. That would bring the company and its policies into the actual discussion in a way which simply articulating that low ethical standards swing both ways does not.

For example, a malicious threat would be something along the lines of "I know where you were last weekend at xx:xx" where this information would be used to extort or blackmail someone (eg, an affair etc). This type of threat would specifically hinge on the abuse of private information. Whether or not this was somehow allowed under any user agreement or employee policy is beside the point--its blatantly an abuse of implicit trust.

That is an entirely different type of situation that saying if "reporter X" is unethica, someone might very well do the equivalent of a classified-security clearance review of "reporter X" and articulate the findings in public. [1]

Needless to say, most people that look at this cannot distinguish the two cases, or if they can they are happy to disregard the reality of how the world works already.

The second issue is the idea of proportionality. In that when faced with some level or argument or counter argument, you dis-repscet the process of discourse and engage in ad-hominem. That is to say, in this case, retaliation with character assasination.

Again, I think this cuts both ways here. Being tone deaf and lacking in porportionality is a problem for ethically challenged startups--not doubt--but its also a problem with tabloids (see: uk phone hacking) and social media lynch mobs.

[1] If it meets the test of being legal and proportionate, its not really unethical by default.

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