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Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

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Re: Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

#101

Post by eksith »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #96
alexqgb wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10) Exec discusses hiring journalists to do journalism to journalists. You know, digging up stuff about their personal life, kind of like (1) on this list. I'm sorry, but you're flat out wrong about this, You're also hilariously ignorant about the most basic aspects of journalistic ethics. The million dollar "opposition research" effort that BuzzFeedBen reported on is NOT journalism. Do journalists dig up dirt? Yes.…

Ok, lets roll with your idea that anonymously publishing true information is unethical. If a woman blogged unkind and sexist behavior at a tech company, but hid her name to avoid the backlash (like Michael), that would be unethical. I guess she'd be an "asshat", right? Same thing for a journalist using an anonymous source? Bad journalistic ethics? https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/that-time-i-was-caught-c... I do i…

  If a woman blogged unkind and sexist behavior at a tech company, but 
  hid her name to avoid the backlash (like Michael), that would be 
  unethical. I guess she'd be an "asshat", right? Same thing for a 
  journalist using an anonymous source?
Did you just compare a woman blogging about a legitimate grievance that makes her work environment intolerable to someone suggesting "Fair game" practices a la Scientology for criticizing his company?

Re: Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

#102

Post by mrow84 »

moab wrote: post #90
mrow84 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> significantly drop wages (primarily due to competition in cities with multiple ride-sharing services) > Companies competing for workers drops wages? I think that moab's point was that competition between ride-sharing companies lowers prices, and one of the places those price reductions come from is a reduction in worker's wages.

Yup - thanks for phrasing that better :) Price reduction has played out its tune in tech before - at cost pricing was how Amazon won (and continues to have a chokehold over e-commerce). At Amazon, however, employees from the warehouse stockers to their receptionists are under contract and regulation, and get guaranteed wages for reasonable hours. Compare this to Uber where there's basically a massive disparity betwee…

I certainly agree with your sentiments, but I thought that Amazon had also had problems, with contractors in its fulfilment centres being denied guaranteed hours, though perhaps I misunderstood the issue. There have certainly been problems like that in the UK, with "zero hours" contracts, where people are offered positions without guaranteed hours, and it is currently a fairly hot political topic without an obvious resolution, beyond banning them, though that wouldn't necessarily be helpful.

Personally, I think the fundamental issues in this area lie not with the flexibility that these types of arrangements offer, but rather in the asymmetry in negotiations between employers and employees. The labour market as a whole is completely distorted by poverty, for want of a better word, to the point where any notions of free exchange are, frankly, ridiculous.

If the collective "we" can implement a way of preserving the ability of people to sell their labour without being placed into unreasonable positions to do so, then we could probably achieve quite dramatic improvements in overall welfare. Until then, as you say, the costs of the system will almost always fall on a group of real people whose difficulties, beyond the occasional editorial piece, are largely ignored (or attributed to something else, such as laziness).

Re: Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

#103

Post by wutbrodo »

physcab wrote: post #85

One of the things I've always hated about Uber is that they are in expert in euphemisms for wage cuts to consumers. "February is a slow month! We're gonna make this deal sweet for you by lowering prices 20%!" "March Madness, 20% off all rides!" "Summer Special, 20% off all rides!" "Summer Special is here to stay! 20% off all rides is permanent!" Now, lets not kid ourselves here. Uber is always going to get their cut.…

> One of the things I've always hated about Uber is that they are in expert in euphemisms for wage cuts to consumers.

Oh please. Your average Lyft/Uber consumer has no clue about and no interest in what the labor-vs-capital cost breakdown is of ANY product they buy. It's really stretching the facts beyond all comprehension to say that calling it a price cut is a "euphemism": the people they're talking to with those messages only interact with the price and it's a price cut. No euphemisms involved.

Complaints about whether the wages for their drivers are too low are completely fair game, but intellectual dishonesty and nonsense about how they use "euphemisms" to hide wage cuts is just Grade-A bullshit.

Re: Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

#104

Post by yummyfajitas »

eksith wrote: post #101
yummyfajitas wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, lets roll with your idea that anonymously publishing true information is unethical. If a woman blogged unkind and sexist behavior at a tech company, but hid her name to avoid the backlash (like Michael), that would be unethical. I guess she'd be an "asshat", right? Same thing for a journalist using an anonymous source? Bad journalistic ethics? https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/that-time-i-was-caught-c... I do i…

If a woman blogged unkind and sexist behavior at a tech company, but hid her name to avoid the backlash (like Michael), that would be unethical. I guess she'd be an "asshat", right? Same thing for a journalist using an anonymous source? Did you just compare a woman blogging about a legitimate grievance that makes her work environment intolerable to someone suggesting "Fair game" practices a la Scientology for critici…

Yes. That's what makes ethics hard.

According to alex, the "critical difference" is anonymity. On this dimension, the sympathetic figure and the big jerk do not differ. So if he is correct about anonymity, then they are indeed comparable. The point is to test whether he really believes his stated principle or whether it's merely a convenient justification to criticize big jerks that he dislikes.

If you think that's not right, that's fine. Then come up with your own principle separating Emil Michael's journalism proposal from Pando/Valleywag. I'll repeat this exercise - trying to come up with a sympathetic figure on the other side of your principle and see if you still support the conclusions.

That's how you test whether your ethical principles are really valid.

Re: Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

#105

Post by wutbrodo »

philwelch wrote: post #48
msoad wrote: post #20

I stopped using Uber about six months ago. Lyft is both cheaper and more fun. Most of drivers I rode with were not full time driver. For me it's always fun to meet new people who are doing all sort of different things in their life.

Lyft sounds like it's more for extraverts--to me, the idea of sitting in the front seat, fist-bumping the driver, and riding around in a car with a stupid pink mustache on it sounds horrifying in much the same way that going on a cruise ship or getting caught in a cheesy tourist trap sounds horrifying. I think it's great that there are different services for different customers though.

> Lyft sounds like it's more for extraverts--to me, the idea of sitting in the front seat, fist-bumping the driver, and riding around in a car with a stupid pink mustache on it sounds horrifying in much the same way that going on a cruise ship or getting caught in a cheesy tourist trap sounds horrifying.

I've taken both Uber and Lyft dozens of times each over the last couple of years, and I really don't understand the sharp distinction that people seem to draw between their model of service. I get that their _marketing_ might differ (apparently Lyft was marketed as the smiley friendly Uber originally), but my experience has been literally identical: I sit in the seat I want to sit (I've never even thought about it..) and if I feel talkative, I talk to the driver and he/she always tends to talk back. If I don't feel talkative, Uber and Lyft drivers alike will leave me alone.

They are 100% interchangeable services: just remember that when you get a ride with either, you're consuming the actual service, not the advertising.

Re: Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

#106

Post by alexqgb »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #96
alexqgb wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10) Exec discusses hiring journalists to do journalism to journalists. You know, digging up stuff about their personal life, kind of like (1) on this list. I'm sorry, but you're flat out wrong about this, You're also hilariously ignorant about the most basic aspects of journalistic ethics. The million dollar "opposition research" effort that BuzzFeedBen reported on is NOT journalism. Do journalists dig up dirt? Yes.…

Ok, lets roll with your idea that anonymously publishing true information is unethical. If a woman blogged unkind and sexist behavior at a tech company, but hid her name to avoid the backlash (like Michael), that would be unethical. I guess she'd be an "asshat", right? Same thing for a journalist using an anonymous source? Bad journalistic ethics? https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/that-time-i-was-caught-c... I do i…

There you go again, with the dishonesty.

Seriously, what is wrong with you? Everyone on this thread can see that I did not say "anonymously publishing true information is unethical." That's your idea, not mine. Please don't put words I didn't say in my mouth.

What I did say is that nothing the Uber exec was talking about could be construed as journalism - even if he hired journalists to do it - and that, accordingly, what he was describing could not be considered "fair play" (which was, in essence, how you framed it).

Re: Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

#107

Post by 3beard »

physcab wrote: post #79
yummyfajitas wrote: post #21

Why do we dislike Uber? Lets go through the links. 1) Stuff about the CEO's personal life. 2) CEO wants to automate business processes. Those of us in tech would never consider replacing humans with machines, right? 3) Trying to compete for workers. (Didn't we hate Apple/Google for agreeing not to do this?) 4) We love Peter Thiel and he hates it. 5-7) A few Uber drivers are crazy (Uber is helping the cops). Note that…

Why do I dislike Uber? 1) They readily treat their drivers like second-class citizens (I was one of them at one point in time) 2) They use "Special Promotion" as a euphemism for "this wage cut is coming in 2 months, you better start shifting your spending habits" 3) In aggregate, their public persona is one of douche-baggery

> They readily treat their drivers like second-class citizens

Sure, but that is pretty much par for the course for any low-education job anywhere in the world. Can't blame Uber for being like the rest.

Re: Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

#108

Post by yummyfajitas »

alexqgb wrote: post #106
yummyfajitas wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, lets roll with your idea that anonymously publishing true information is unethical. If a woman blogged unkind and sexist behavior at a tech company, but hid her name to avoid the backlash (like Michael), that would be unethical. I guess she'd be an "asshat", right? Same thing for a journalist using an anonymous source? Bad journalistic ethics? https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/that-time-i-was-caught-c... I do i…

There you go again, with the dishonesty. Seriously, what is wrong with you? Everyone on this thread can see that I did not say "anonymously publishing true information is unethical." That's your idea, not mine. Please don't put words I didn't say in my mouth. What I did say is that nothing the Uber exec was talking about could be construed as journalism - even if he hired journalists to do it - and that, accordingly,…

Have you considered the possibility that I merely didn't completely understand everything you said? You mentioned ethics repeatedly in your post, so I thought your "critical difference" referred to ethics rather than merely the definition of journalism.

I thought the you said anonymity was the critical point making it unethical (given your reference to "journalistic ethics". Now it sounds like you merely meant that it doesn't fit some definition of journalism. Is that right?

So would a fair characterization of your beliefs would be that Michael's proposal would be ethical (much like the anonymous hypothetical woman I mentioned, or the real anonymous woman I linked to) but not journalism?

Or is it unethical for some reason that you didn't mention?

Re: Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

#109

Post by alexqgb »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #104
eksith wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a woman blogged unkind and sexist behavior at a tech company, but hid her name to avoid the backlash (like Michael), that would be unethical. I guess she'd be an "asshat", right? Same thing for a journalist using an anonymous source? Did you just compare a woman blogging about a legitimate grievance that makes her work environment intolerable to someone suggesting "Fair game" practices a la Scientology for critici…

Yes. That's what makes ethics hard. According to alex, the "critical difference" is anonymity. On this dimension, the sympathetic figure and the big jerk do not differ. So if he is correct about anonymity , then they are indeed comparable. The point is to test whether he really believes his stated principle or whether it's merely a convenient justification to criticize big jerks that he dislikes. If you think that's…

"According to alex, the "critical difference" is anonymity."

Again, what is with this twisting of people's words and misrepresenting what they said?

Just so you're clear, I wasn't differentiating ethical from unethical when I used the phrase "critical difference". I was distinguishing journalism from not journalism.

Big, big difference.

Re: Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

#110

Post by philwelch »

wutbrodo wrote: post #105
philwelch wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lyft sounds like it's more for extraverts--to me, the idea of sitting in the front seat, fist-bumping the driver, and riding around in a car with a stupid pink mustache on it sounds horrifying in much the same way that going on a cruise ship or getting caught in a cheesy tourist trap sounds horrifying. I think it's great that there are different services for different customers though.

> Lyft sounds like it's more for extraverts--to me, the idea of sitting in the front seat, fist-bumping the driver, and riding around in a car with a stupid pink mustache on it sounds horrifying in much the same way that going on a cruise ship or getting caught in a cheesy tourist trap sounds horrifying. I've taken both Uber and Lyft dozens of times each over the last couple of years, and I really don't understand th…

As long as the stupid pink mustache is optional then maybe I'll give it a try.
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