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For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

usmarshals.gov

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Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#41

Post by stronglikedan »

whyenot wrote: post #28
zwtaylor wrote: post #2

I don't have a deep grasp of Civil Forfeiture but it seems like this is unusual considering DPR has not been convicted of anything yet. Is this part of a plea bargin or something similar?

Everyone seems to be going off on a tangent about civil forfeiture. From the order: http://www.usmarshals.gov/assets/2014/dpr-bitcoins/order.pdf WHEREAS, the Government and Ulbricht agree that, due to the volatile market for bitcoins, the Computer Hardware Bitcoins risk losing value during the pendency of the forfeiture proceedings; WHEREAS, the Government and Ulbricht agree that the Computer Hardware Bitcoins are to…

So basically, put the current value of the coins in escrow, instead of the coins themselves, in case they drop in value dramatically over time. Makes sense to me.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#42

Post by bbcbasic »

martinko wrote: post #13
Aaronneyer wrote: post #3

Will be interesting to see how this announcement effects the price of bitcoins. I would imagine there will be an initial drop out of panic, but if we see some wealthy individuals with a vested interest in bitcoin buying these up, it could very much cause a large shift upwards in price.

Right after the news broke we saw a relatively high volume dump pushing the price down by about 8%, from 410 to 375. Curious to see where it will go now. To be honest I expected a larger dump after this kind of news..

Funny it should have barely any effect on the price, but if the news caused this drop it is probably because people sold anticipating that the news would cause this drop.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#43

Post by RamseyMcGrath »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #34
eyeareque wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what happens if he legally obtained these bitcoins, but cannot prove that he did so? So he basically loses them before he even can prove that they are his or not? That doesn't seem right, it would make sense that the coins are held in an escrow status until he was proven guilty.. It seems to be a big loophole for the government to just go and steal whatever they want from you, before you've been proven guilty.

Let's be honest: There is zero chance that Ross William Ulbricht obtained those coins legally. While that may be beside the point, a rousing speech about how asset forfeiture should be changed would resonate more strongly if the subject was someone other than a person who hired people to murder others. Also, it seems like supreme court justices aren't going to turn against asset forfeiture any time soon, so there's r…

While we're being honest, I don't think there were ever charges filed against Ross for hiring anyone to kill anyone else

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#44

Post by drcube »

eyeareque wrote: post #20
ncallaway wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civil forfeiture is different from criminal forfeiture in that it does _not_ require a guilty verdict. Civil forfeiture is against the _property_, and it puts the burden of proof on the owner of the property to prove that it was obtained legally. Here's another explanation of it that's probably better than mine: https://www.contributoria.com/issue/2014-08/539b517ba588a791...

So what happens if he legally obtained these bitcoins, but cannot prove that he did so? So he basically loses them before he even can prove that they are his or not? That doesn't seem right, it would make sense that the coins are held in an escrow status until he was proven guilty.. It seems to be a big loophole for the government to just go and steal whatever they want from you, before you've been proven guilty.

> It seems to be a big loophole for the government to just go and steal whatever they want from you, before you've been proven guilty.

Nevertheless, that's how it works in the land of the free.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/10/363102433/pol...

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#45

Post by foobarqux »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #34
eyeareque wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what happens if he legally obtained these bitcoins, but cannot prove that he did so? So he basically loses them before he even can prove that they are his or not? That doesn't seem right, it would make sense that the coins are held in an escrow status until he was proven guilty.. It seems to be a big loophole for the government to just go and steal whatever they want from you, before you've been proven guilty.

Let's be honest: There is zero chance that Ross William Ulbricht obtained those coins legally. While that may be beside the point, a rousing speech about how asset forfeiture should be changed would resonate more strongly if the subject was someone other than a person who hired people to murder others. Also, it seems like supreme court justices aren't going to turn against asset forfeiture any time soon, so there's r…

It would be comparable to saying that he should get a fair trial, even if everyone "knows" he's guilty.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#46

Post by rebel »

dkyc wrote: post #24
xchaotic wrote: post #9

I'll keep an eye out for this. I think the final price will reach quite close to the market price with no guarantee of being able to sell at that price. Still might be worthwhile for someone to build up their position considerably without spooking the exchanges.

Last time the US auctioned off bitcoins, the price was above market price [0]. A VC wanted to buy a large chunk of bitcoins for a company he invests in without driving up the price. [0] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-01/bitcoin-auction-end...

I don't see anywhere in your cited article that says the coins were purchased for more than market price. Can you point it out for me?

Additionally, if you were a rational investor who believed the coins were worth above market price, why would you not additionally buy up any coins on the market that were selling below that price? Ultimately, bidding up the market price to whatever the "above-market" bid was.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#47

Post by dustcoin »

dkyc wrote: post #24
xchaotic wrote: post #9

I'll keep an eye out for this. I think the final price will reach quite close to the market price with no guarantee of being able to sell at that price. Still might be worthwhile for someone to build up their position considerably without spooking the exchanges.

Last time the US auctioned off bitcoins, the price was above market price [0]. A VC wanted to buy a large chunk of bitcoins for a company he invests in without driving up the price. [0] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-01/bitcoin-auction-end...

Nothing in that article states that the coins were sold above market price. The only publicly known data points were some significantly below-market bids (<$500 when the market price was ~$600) that did not win.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#48

Post by sillysaurus3 »

foobarqux wrote: post #45
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest: There is zero chance that Ross William Ulbricht obtained those coins legally. While that may be beside the point, a rousing speech about how asset forfeiture should be changed would resonate more strongly if the subject was someone other than a person who hired people to murder others. Also, it seems like supreme court justices aren't going to turn against asset forfeiture any time soon, so there's r…

It would be comparable to saying that he should get a fair trial, even if everyone "knows" he's guilty.

Not really. Asset forfeiture has nothing to do with a fair trial. Those are two separate concepts under the US legal system.

Also, he is getting a fair trial.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#49

Post by murbard2 »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #34
eyeareque wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what happens if he legally obtained these bitcoins, but cannot prove that he did so? So he basically loses them before he even can prove that they are his or not? That doesn't seem right, it would make sense that the coins are held in an escrow status until he was proven guilty.. It seems to be a big loophole for the government to just go and steal whatever they want from you, before you've been proven guilty.

Let's be honest: There is zero chance that Ross William Ulbricht obtained those coins legally. While that may be beside the point, a rousing speech about how asset forfeiture should be changed would resonate more strongly if the subject was someone other than a person who hired people to murder others. Also, it seems like supreme court justices aren't going to turn against asset forfeiture any time soon, so there's r…

Allegedly. Just because the DA says so doesn't mean it's true.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#50

Post by [deleted] »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #34
eyeareque wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what happens if he legally obtained these bitcoins, but cannot prove that he did so? So he basically loses them before he even can prove that they are his or not? That doesn't seem right, it would make sense that the coins are held in an escrow status until he was proven guilty.. It seems to be a big loophole for the government to just go and steal whatever they want from you, before you've been proven guilty.

Let's be honest: There is zero chance that Ross William Ulbricht obtained those coins legally. While that may be beside the point, a rousing speech about how asset forfeiture should be changed would resonate more strongly if the subject was someone other than a person who hired people to murder others. Also, it seems like supreme court justices aren't going to turn against asset forfeiture any time soon, so there's r…

[deleted]
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