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Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? (1997)

math.ucr.edu

51–60 of 88 posts

Re: Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? (1997)

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

remember, though that ockham's razor is not an axiom, it's a heuristic.

Yea, but I feel it's a good heuristic, and I'd like to hold onto it. It seems like a crude, non-mathematical formulation of Solomonoff theory. Also, Ockham's razor is the best argument in support of the Multiverse view.

Ockham's razor is a terrible heuristic, and one of the reasons the Multiverse view gets so much skepticism is that Ockham's razor is the best argument for it.

Consider: Ockham himself believed that "not multiplying entities beyond necessity" was an argument for the existence of God and an argument against the existence of everything else. That is, once you had an omnipotent god, everything else was just a product of that god's imagination. This idea wasn't necessarily original to Ockham, but he was one of it's more notable proponents.

Furthermore, "simplicity" is an extremely wobbly concept. To a circularist, elliptical orbits are horribly complex, as they have to be approximated by an infinite series of epicycles. Acknowledge ellipses as primary and they become simple: adding just one parameter over circles. There are of course fairly objective measures of complexity (Shannon entropy and Kolmogorov complexity) but neither of them apply very nicely to the kind of conceptual arguments where Ockham's razor is typically introduce.

Finally, we know that there is exactly one consistent way to update our beliefs in the face of new evidence: Bayes' rule. Since it is very simple, we don't really need to invoke any additional heuristics like Ockham's razor. And we find, in fact, that in the few cases where Ockham's razor makes sense it is nothing but a consequence of Bayes' rule, and can be expressed as follows:

In cases where two causes would give rise to the same evidence with roughly equal probability, and one cause has a much higher prior plausibility, the presence of the evidence means that cause is the more likely of the two.

That is, "When you hear hoofbeats think horses not zebras" is a good idea in most cases because the prior plausibility of "There are horses around" is a whole lot higher in most cases than that of "There are zebras around". The presence of hoofbeats raises the plausibility of both propositions by exactly the same amount, but the ratio between them remains the same, so the evidence is most likely evidence of horses, not zebras.

Re: Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? (1997)

#52
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"since the speed of something is just another way of looking at how "fast" it travels through time" In what sense do you mean that? Can you elaborate?

It is mentioned in the linked article. Since speed is always relative (to a frame of reference), Special relativity by definition proposes that, nothing can go faster than C. The article gives an example, if a spaceship is traveling at 0.6c, and another spaceship is traveling at 0.6c - away from first first ship. Their relative velocities are not 1.2c, but 0.8c ( http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/ve…

Semi-pedantic point: speed is not always relative to frame of reference. Light moves at c in all frames of reference.

Re: Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? (1997)

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Another observation worth considering: cosmic travel times seem utterly problematic right now because we individually live for extremely short periods of time. Doesn't relativity "solve" this this problem if we can reach near lightspeed, and don't mind it being a one way trip?

I was wrong, see edit below. No, there is still an lower limit of 4.37 years to get to alpha-centauri within any frame of reference no matter how much you accelerate within conventional space. What relativity does, is that if you travel close to speed of light time taken for the trip as measured on ship versus on earth could be different by many orders of magnitude. edit: Was wrong, as per [0] "This is something many…

Wait why can't you get under 4 years if you accelerate really fast?

Re: Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? (1997)

#54
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"since the speed of something is just another way of looking at how "fast" it travels through time" In what sense do you mean that? Can you elaborate?

Whenever two objects are in relative motion to one another, they each perceive a time dilation taking place at the other object. The flow of time is directly linked to the relative speed of an object. On an object that moves at the speed of light, time stands still. For more information on the mathematics, I refer you to the Lorentz transformation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_transformation ), but it's actu…

> Whenever two objects are in relative motion to one another, they each perceive a time dilation taking place at the other object.

This is true.

>The flow of time is directly linked to the relative speed of an object.

I'm not sure this is even a coherent statement. "Flow of time" along what?

Consider for comparison: what would the "Flow of latitude" refer to on a planet's surface? Any coherent statement about the "Flow of time" should also make sense when applied to the "Flow of latitude", and I can't think of any way of conceptualizing the "flow of latitude" that makes sense.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "flow", but in relativity dimensions do not "flow" in any conventional sense, and the notion that "increases in speed are causing a decrease in the flow of time" makes no sense: to an observer on an object clocks continue to run at a constant rate, and the whole point of relativity is that observers on objects are just as good as observers anywhere else.

The laws of physics are the same for everyone (this is the principle of relativity) so since an observer on an object does not observe co-moving clocks slowing down, any talk of "a decrease in the flow of time" requires a violation of the principle of relativity.

Re: Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? (1997)

#55
post #38
post #33

The consensus interpretation is that FTL is not possible in normal space, since the speed of something is just another way of looking at how "fast" it travels through time - FTL becomes impossible by definition. However, there is reason to assume a lot of things may be going on that are not strictly speaking taking place in normal flat space. The article mentions the expansion of the universe as an example, and that'…

We in the west are a bit too obsessed with moving fast. What do we call a common trick in fantasy and SF that allows someone or something to move large distances in a short time? Teleportation. Spacetime stays the same, you just move through it very fast, whether physically or electronically. By contrast, fantasy tales in China, Japan, and Korea, both modern and traditional, often show the protagonists practicing shu…

Quite a lot of our Sci-Fi's "FTL drives" are actually "Jump Drives". Take, for instance, Battlestar Glactica. They don't move through space, they jump to a new place within it.

Re: Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? (1997)

#56
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever two objects are in relative motion to one another, they each perceive a time dilation taking place at the other object. The flow of time is directly linked to the relative speed of an object. On an object that moves at the speed of light, time stands still. For more information on the mathematics, I refer you to the Lorentz transformation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_transformation ), but it's actu…

> Whenever two objects are in relative motion to one another, they each perceive a time dilation taking place at the other object. This is true. >The flow of time is directly linked to the relative speed of an object. I'm not sure this is even a coherent statement. "Flow of time" along what ? Consider for comparison: what would the "Flow of latitude" refer to on a planet's surface? Any coherent statement about the "F…

> but in relativity dimensions do not "flow" in any conventional sense

That is not really the point. You are concentrating on the word flow, and maybe I chose that foolishly, so bear in mind that I'm of course not a native speaker.

If we discard for a moment things that move at the speed of light, that leaves us with objects for which time does not stand still. Whether or not you agree with the word "flow", is it really that objectionable to characterize the experience of time as a movement through a fourth dimension?

My entire point in this regard was really that relative velocity and time dilation are linked. Which they are. It's right there in the math. Maybe my mistake was to use "flow" conversationally, but if you could see past that it would probably a more productive discussion for both of us.

> "a decrease in the flow of time" requires a violation of the principle of relativity

You misunderstood what I was trying to say, in a colossal way. I apologize for not being clearer. At no point was I suggesting a global "flow of time". In fact, I made a special effort to talk about individual reference frames.

Re: Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? (1997)

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wrong, see edit below. No, there is still an lower limit of 4.37 years to get to alpha-centauri within any frame of reference no matter how much you accelerate within conventional space. What relativity does, is that if you travel close to speed of light time taken for the trip as measured on ship versus on earth could be different by many orders of magnitude. edit: Was wrong, as per [0] "This is something many…

lfuller is right. For example, if you have a ship capable of continuous acceleration at 1g, you can reach any point in the universe on the order of ~50 years.

Can you continuously accelerate at g for 50 years without going over the speed of light? According to wolfram alpha http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=speed+of+light%2Flittle...

it would take a year to get to the speed of light at 1g (if my equation was right.) Then you can't speed up anymore.

Re: Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? (1997)

#58

> Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? No. Pretty simple stuff. No, it is not. No matter how many sci fi movies tell you other wise. It is not. Every experiment that comes out saying different is either lying/incompetent or the news reporting on it is lying/incompetent. Just because you want it to be true does not make it either true or possible.

It's also impossible to talk to someone miles away... Oh, electricity!

It's also impossible to travel 30mph... Oh, Petroleum!

It's also impossible to go to the moon... Oh, RP-1/LOX!

--

Stop pretending we know everything about the universe when we clearly do not. The best you can claim is "No... with current understanding".

Re: Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? (1997)

#59
post #33

The consensus interpretation is that FTL is not possible in normal space, since the speed of something is just another way of looking at how "fast" it travels through time - FTL becomes impossible by definition. However, there is reason to assume a lot of things may be going on that are not strictly speaking taking place in normal flat space. The article mentions the expansion of the universe as an example, and that'…

> The consensus interpretation is that FTL is not possible in normal space

I don't think this really makes sense, because "normal space" is not a well-defined term.

What our current relativistic theories say is that spacetime contains a causal structure marked out by light cones, and nothing can move outside the light cones. In certain spacetimes (like the one that describes our expanding universe), it is possible to assign coordinates to events so that it looks like objects are moving apart "faster than light", but when you look at the light cones in those same coordinates, you can confirm that the objects are still moving inside the light cones.

> new space in between these points is being created

This isn't really part of the physics of the expanding universe; it's an interpretation that some people put on it. There's nothing in the actual math that corresponds to "new space being created".

> space can "flow" faster than the speed of light on the far side of event horizons

This isn't really part of the physics either; it's an interpretation (part of what's often called the "river model" of black holes) that can help with visualization, but again there's nothing in the actual math that corresponds to "space flowing faster than light".

> ways of doing these manipulations may well exist

According to our current theories, any such manipulations would require what is called "exotic matter". There are good physical reasons to think that it is not possible to create exotic matter, especially in the quantities we would need to "hack spacetime" (nice phrase!) on the scales we would want to do it. Given that, I don't think it's fair to say that "FTL is most likely possible in theory"; I would say it's most likely not possible on our best current theories.

Re: Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible? (1997)

#60
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lfuller is right. For example, if you have a ship capable of continuous acceleration at 1g, you can reach any point in the universe on the order of ~50 years.

Can you continuously accelerate at g for 50 years without going over the speed of light? According to wolfram alpha http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=speed+of+light%2Flittle... it would take a year to get to the speed of light at 1g (if my equation was right.) Then you can't speed up anymore.

> it would take a year to get to the speed of light at 1g (if my equation was right.)

It isn't. Wolfram Alpha apparently doesn't know about the relativistic rocket equation. Try here:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/rocket.h...

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