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Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

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Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#81

Post by jqm »

bigiain wrote: post #9
toyg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemd has always been very controversial.

From tfheen on the Slashdot thread: "I don't agree with them (at least not fully), but my resignation from the maintainer team is not about people being skeptical, it's about personal attacks, it's about death wishes from project members and it's about people escalating conflicts instead of trying to resolve them." Seriously, people sending _death wishes_ to developer or maintainers of software who's decisions/direct…

While I respect your decision to throw out the CVs of people engaging in hatred and death wishes (of course... I think most people would do this), I'm not sure many of these people will be applying to your Australian web strategy company.

In other words, your post came off as a bit self important.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#83

Post by [deleted] »

Stratoscope wrote: post #61
uselessdguy wrote: post #53

I completely condemn such nonsense as a bunch of vitriolic people driving a distribution maintainer away from their position all because of their indirect affiliation with a controversial project. Such actions are why I identify with neither the systemd opponents nor the proponents. Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream falla…

> I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea th…

[deleted]

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#84

Post by tptacek »

kristofferR wrote: post #80
tptacek wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very easy to talk about game "journalism" without being lumped into the "vocal minority". Just talk about game "journalism" without sticking up for the hopeless "GamerGate" brand, and be careful not to bring up game "journalism" in discussions about gender parity.

I get your point, yet I also see why that would be impossible from the GamerGate point of view considering how the media for the most part covered GamerGate in a biased one-sided way. Don't get me wrong, I don't support GamerGate (or the other side) at all. Yet, all gamers aren't women-hating misogynists, despite the reporting.

See, you stuck up for "GamerGate", and now I think you're one of those people who believe that Zoe Quinn's private life is everyone's business because "ethics in journalism".

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#85

Post by empressplay »

It should be obvious to anyone that RedHat has a vested interest in making the vast majority of Linux distributions dependent on technology it controls. Linux is its bread-and-butter.

It appears RedHat has realised that, through systemd, it can readily provide preferential support for its own projects, and place roadblocks up for projects it does not control, thus extending its influence broadly and quickly. By using tenuous dependencies amongst its own projects it can speed adoption even faster.

Once it has significant influence, and the maintainers of competing projects have drifted away either out of frustration or because they are starved of oxygen, RedHat knows that they can effectively take Linux closed-source by restricting access to documentation and fighting changes that are not in their own best interests.

At this point, they can market themselves as the only rational choice for corporate Linux support -- and this would be perfectly reasonable because they would have effective control of the ecosystem.

Linux (as in a full OS implementation) is an extremely complex beast and you can't just "fork it" and start your own 'distro' from scratch anymore -- you would have to leverage a small army to do it, then keep that army to maintain it. It's just not practical.

At the same time, Linux has matured to the point of attaining some measure of corporate credibility, and from RedHat's point of view, it no longer needs its 'open source' roots to remain viable. RedHat also, understandably, fears potential competition.

Through systemd and subsequent takeovers of other ecosystem components, RedHat can leverage its own position while stifling potential competition -- this is a best-case scenario for any corporation. It will have an advantage in the marketplace, potential customers will recognise that advantage, and buy its products and support contracts.

I hope you can understand why many see this as an extremely compelling case. Arguing that RedHat has 'ethics' and would 'never do such a thing' is immature and silly -- RedHat is a corporation, it exists to profit from its opportunities, just like any other company. To attempt to argue that it would not do so is contrary to what we can assume is its default state.

It's no 'conspiracy theory' to assume that a corporation will behave like a corporation; arguing that it is just makes one look like a naive child. systemd is one large step toward RedHat gaining the ability to reap what it has sewn -- for its benefit and not necessarily ours.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#86

Post by bigiain »

Stratoscope wrote: post #61
uselessdguy wrote: post #53

I completely condemn such nonsense as a bunch of vitriolic people driving a distribution maintainer away from their position all because of their indirect affiliation with a controversial project. Such actions are why I identify with neither the systemd opponents nor the proponents. Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream falla…

> I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea th…

I dunno why this is getting downvoted.

The elephant in the room here is that this is behavior that is largely people imitating Linus's "personal style". Although he doesn't resort to death wishes, the tone he's famous to setting on mailing lists pretty much inevitably leads to other people thinking "this is OK".

It's not.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#88

Post by georgemcbay »

themoonbus wrote: post #49
georgemcbay wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same issue as #GamerGate in that game "journalism" really is completely broken but now you can't talk about that without being lumped in with a bunch of vocal minority crazed misogynists.

I don't think you're a misogynist based on this comment. I just think the minority is bigger than you might imagine.

I didn't mean to downplay the impact when I used the word minority, there certainly are a lot of people on that loony bandwagon, but relative to the total community of gamers (not just the subset of those whose public internet identities on YouTube or whatever self-identify as "gamer") I would have to assume they are a very, very small minority since a lot of people are gamers, and most people (while sexist to varying degrees, as are we all) aren't abusive women-haters, in my experience.

Also, it looks like you might be getting downvotes (due to the coloring of your comment when I viewed it anyway). Wasn't me, I upvoted you fwiw.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#89

Post by imanaccount247 »

Alupis wrote: post #7

It's time for this crap to stop. systemd haters have gone Too Far. Get over it. It's childish and pathetic now. Death threats to the creator. Personal attacks to volunteers. You have carried a debate into the extreme to where it is no longer noble. Just leave. Just stop. You are not welcome anymore in the community.

>systemd haters have gone Too Far.

No, they have not. Some random asshats have done what random asshats have always done. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got death threats when he killed off Sherlock Holmes. This is not some new thing or some internet thing. These are not people who were ever involved in a debate for them to carry over into something more extreme. They were never part of the community. This desire to blame other people for someone else's actions is immoral and dishonest.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#90

Post by acdha »

kristofferR wrote: post #80
tptacek wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very easy to talk about game "journalism" without being lumped into the "vocal minority". Just talk about game "journalism" without sticking up for the hopeless "GamerGate" brand, and be careful not to bring up game "journalism" in discussions about gender parity.

I get your point, yet I also see why that would be impossible from the GamerGate point of view considering how the media for the most part covered GamerGate in a biased one-sided way. Don't get me wrong, I don't support GamerGate (or the other side) at all. Yet, all gamers aren't women-hating misogynists, despite the reporting.

The problem is that GamerGate was created as part of a harassment campaign, explicitly billed as a propaganda tool, and never had a coherent message or structure, neither of which is necessary for a PR operation.

This meant that while the media coverage was generally accurate there are GamerGate supporters who aren't aware of the true origins and now incorrect feel that they were misrepresented — precisely the kind of distraction the original 4chan / burgersandfries cadre were hoping for.

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