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How a Shrimp Treadmill Became a Political Plaything

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Re: How a Shrimp Treadmill Became a Political Plaything

#31

Post by abstractbill »

exstudent wrote: post #29
Blahah wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diverse, as long as you respect your colleagues. Wearing a t-shirt with scantily clad women (or men) on it is not acceptable in any workplace. Just like watching porn is not appropriate in the workplace. There is no end in sight for independent thought in science, but the end of thoughtless marginalisation of women is most definitely overdue. edit: honestly - downvotes for this? Think about what that means.

His female colleagues had no issue with the shirt. It was the guy who wrote The Verge article and the following pile on that had issue with it. In fact some of his female colleagues came to his defense on Twitter.

In fact some of his female colleagues came to his defense on Twitter.

(as did the woman who made the shirt in the first place: https://twitter.com/ellypriZeMaN/status/533287464497332225)

Re: How a Shrimp Treadmill Became a Political Plaything

#32

Post by Blahah »

exstudent wrote: post #29
Blahah wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diverse, as long as you respect your colleagues. Wearing a t-shirt with scantily clad women (or men) on it is not acceptable in any workplace. Just like watching porn is not appropriate in the workplace. There is no end in sight for independent thought in science, but the end of thoughtless marginalisation of women is most definitely overdue. edit: honestly - downvotes for this? Think about what that means.

His female colleagues had no issue with the shirt. It was the guy who wrote The Verge article and the following pile on that had issue with it. In fact some of his female colleagues came to his defense on Twitter.

That's completely irrelevant. The problem is that he wore a shirt that sexualises women in a televised major scientific event. Millions of people saw the video, and the image he projected was that he's more interested in sex than in making women feel welcome and valued in science. Which is incidentally the same image you're portraying.

Re: How a Shrimp Treadmill Became a Political Plaything

#33

Post by fleitz »

Blahah wrote: post #27
exstudent wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diverse, as long as you dress EXACTLY how you're "supposed" to. A friend made him this shirt. He was wearing it as a tribute since the day was important to him. He got nailed to the wall. Remember when scientists and engineers could dress how they wanted and be independent thinkers? It's sad to see that coming to an end. This is not a win for science or free thought.

Diverse, as long as you respect your colleagues. Wearing a t-shirt with scantily clad women (or men) on it is not acceptable in any workplace. Just like watching porn is not appropriate in the workplace. There is no end in sight for independent thought in science, but the end of thoughtless marginalisation of women is most definitely overdue. edit: honestly - downvotes for this? Think about what that means.

Why not?

Get the repressed individuals out of the office and it's totally fine, some people are comfortable in their own skin, some people aren't.

My partner would like to wear lower cut tops than she's allowed to at work, so I don't see how some arbitrary dress code reduces marginalization of women.

In some places how you dress is very important to clients, some people are able to see through the clothes one wears to the value they provide. There is no universal dress code that ends marginalization of women, because gasp different women have different opinions on what they'd like to wear.

Re: How a Shrimp Treadmill Became a Political Plaything

#34

Post by mikeyouse »

nyrulez wrote: post #28
exstudent wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the US. Just today the UK press made the lead scientist of the Rosetta mission cry by attacking his SHIRT instead of celebrating his achievements. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/11231320/Rosetta-mi...

Why is this shirt sexist ? Since when are scantily clad women based themes sexist ? Or was it something he said that's missing in the article ?

It was a questionably appropriate shirt but when they interviewed him, he gave a strange answer about how this comet was “The sexiest mission there’s ever been. She’s sexy, but I never said she was easy.”

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/13/why-women-in-...

Re: How a Shrimp Treadmill Became a Political Plaything

#35

Post by wozniacki »

sharkweek wrote: post #5

I highly recommend folks watch Particle Fever (for a variety of reasons, and it's on Netflix), but one section particularly stuck out, when the documentary addresses the original LHC location in Texas being de-funded. It shows members of congress arguing how "discovering the origins of the universe" should not be a priority. I think it's easy to make a very public argument against budgeting research, as the general p…

When these topics, concerning the general disinterestedness and the indifference of the voting populace toward science and technology come up, one is left to wonder how it is even arithmetically possible in 2014, that there isn't yet a financially lofty interest-group apparatus in Washington, advancing policies that collectively foster the cause of basic research in science & tech.

Where are the think tanks?

Where are the high powered K-street lobbyists?

( I'm discounting the nascent and newfangled lobby groups, here.[1] )

We could not even help elect a single legislator in our own backyard.[2]

Surely, it certainly isn't for the lack of war-chests.

What is it then?

Heck, there isn't a single nationally syndicated journalist who can even rebut the casually-dystopian hogwash Hollywood routinely churns out, like clockwork.[3]

I know images of a bleak and soulless future rings more bells at the box office than visions of a verdant tech-enabled one.

Nonetheless, tens of millions of people watch these movies to nurture their already well-developed dislike for science & rational thought on one side and their embrace of religious dogma and superstition on the other.

[1] Tech Firms and Lobbyists: Now Intertwined, but Not Eager to Reveal It

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/upshot/tech-firms-and-lobb...

[2] Tech Industry Flexes Muscle in California Race

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/us/politics/tech-industry-...

[3] Blade Runner: The Final Cut, review

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/filmreviews/11089809...

Re: How a Shrimp Treadmill Became a Political Plaything

#36

Post by inclemnet »

OSButler wrote: post #20
lern_too_spel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. His achievement was celebrated as well. His shirt is the kind of thing that keeps women away from science, so the fact that he publicly acknowledged his error will make other scientists more consciously think about inclusivity, helping science in the long run.

His shirt is the kind of thing that keeps women away from science? This all started with s.o. being offended by it while watching the original interview, but how can you come to such a conclusion based on that? Did the female student's lecture attendance/signup rate plummet since that interview? Is there any kind of imperial evidence that this person's shirt is making female students turn away from science? I honestl…

> but how can you come to such a conclusion based on that?

I don't think anyone can prove it right now, only find it plausible or probable. Of course that's a long way from proof, but the opposite is also true - can you demonstrate that this shirt, in the context of a wider trend of what people can and do wear, does not affect the number of women in science?

> Did the female student's lecture attendance/signup rate plummet since that interview?

This is disingenuous, I'm sure you know that no criticism of the shirt is because this specific, individual incident would be perceived to be of overwhelming importance for any given statistic, and I think your attempt to portray things this way is a strawman or a horrible misunderstanding. As above, it is the example of wearing this shirt in the context of wider trends in what people do (and wear) that people are criticising. You can still disagree with them, but at least disagree on a point you didn't just make up.

Re: How a Shrimp Treadmill Became a Political Plaything

#37

Post by inclemnet »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #12
exstudent wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the US. Just today the UK press made the lead scientist of the Rosetta mission cry by attacking his SHIRT instead of celebrating his achievements. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/11231320/Rosetta-mi...

Oh, That Shirt. I thought that was just some feminists divorced from reality who got busy complaining. Meanwhile, during the livecast, when the go/no-go decisions took place the night before the comet landing, you could see one woman engineer and two or three men engineers on duty in the control room, and they all interacted with each other as if they were peers. I'm blessed to be ignorant about sexism in Silicon Val…

> you could see one woman engineer and two or three men engineers on duty in the control room, and they all interacted with each other as if they were peers.

This is a remarkably short sighted attitude. I mean, maybe there is totally no problem with the shirt, but it's just a false argument to say 'I saw some women in science so there is no problem'.

Re: How a Shrimp Treadmill Became a Political Plaything

#38

Post by rebootthesystem »

Before. Ask this question I must issue a disclaimer: We waste more money giving religious groups all kinds of priviledges (tax exemptions for TV evangelists!!!) than university researchers will ever waste. Every dollar invested in science is a dollar well spent.

That said, scientists are not beyond wasting resources. I think it is absolutely proper and important to hold scientific research accountable to the degree it is possible.

I am not making a comment about the shrimp treadmill, this is more of a general observation.

Re: How a Shrimp Treadmill Became a Political Plaything

#39

Post by onewaystreet »

Blahah wrote: post #27
exstudent wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diverse, as long as you dress EXACTLY how you're "supposed" to. A friend made him this shirt. He was wearing it as a tribute since the day was important to him. He got nailed to the wall. Remember when scientists and engineers could dress how they wanted and be independent thinkers? It's sad to see that coming to an end. This is not a win for science or free thought.

Diverse, as long as you respect your colleagues. Wearing a t-shirt with scantily clad women (or men) on it is not acceptable in any workplace. Just like watching porn is not appropriate in the workplace. There is no end in sight for independent thought in science, but the end of thoughtless marginalisation of women is most definitely overdue. edit: honestly - downvotes for this? Think about what that means.

It's hard to say that he was disrespecting his colleagues considering that not one of them told him not to wear it. Even if they were scared to do so you would expect someone of higher or equal status to him to say something if it was really seen as a problem. IMO this is a culture clash between American and British culture. In the US it would be unthinkable for someone to wear a shirt like that just because it would be seen as unprofessional, even by a misogynist (which I don't think the Dr. is). In the UK they don't take things like that as serious and are also more tolerant of sex images. It's quite likely that no one thought anything of his shirt until people (Americans) started complaining about it on Twitter.

Re: How a Shrimp Treadmill Became a Political Plaything

#40

Post by HarryHirsch »

inclemnet wrote: post #37
HarryHirsch wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, That Shirt. I thought that was just some feminists divorced from reality who got busy complaining. Meanwhile, during the livecast, when the go/no-go decisions took place the night before the comet landing, you could see one woman engineer and two or three men engineers on duty in the control room, and they all interacted with each other as if they were peers. I'm blessed to be ignorant about sexism in Silicon Val…

> you could see one woman engineer and two or three men engineers on duty in the control room, and they all interacted with each other as if they were peers. This is a remarkably short sighted attitude. I mean, maybe there is totally no problem with the shirt, but it's just a false argument to say 'I saw some women in science so there is no problem'.

No, it shows that civilization has arrived in Darmstadt. It's an ideal to aspire to, and the folks in the ESO control room have managed to get there. (I believe that in my old university department we have arrived in the same place.)

Everywhere should be like that, and I doubt you get there by banning shirts with surfer babes on. Jesus was up to something when he said "But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person." This was in the context of observing the divine commandments. It's the problem I have with overly specific codes of conduct. If you are an asshole you can and will work around the specific stipulations, and you are and remain an asshole.

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