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What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

nytimes.com

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Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#151

Post by PeterisP »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #146
dragonwriter wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rules come from somewhere. That somewhere is rulers. Therefore, no rulers => no rules. Therefore, (Anarchy => no rulers) => (Anarchy => no rules).

Well, rules in anarchy have to come from consensus of the people. So the only rules, in practice, are those that the people are willing and able to enforce against those who wish to break them. History shows that, in anarchy situations, those who wish to break the rules are sometimes highly motivated and well armed. Thus anarchy at least means "no rules that apply to a warlord when he really wants them not to". Now,…

There is no such thing consensus of the people in any communities of nontrivial size.

In anarchy situations, whoever is capable of filling the power vacuum creates new rules - the "highly motivated and well armed" groups don't break the rules (since if they disagree, there's obviously not a consensus about those rules); they define the rules and others possibly break them.

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#152

Post by [deleted] »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #140
internet_arguer wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite. From one troll account to another. It's interesting when someone from Switzerland claims the moral high ground about a country's past wrongs. Switzerland has a colorful history of Nazi collaboration and laundering of stolen treasure by the 3rd Reich. Is that an unfair characterization of you as a modern Swiss person? Yes. Just like comparing 1960s America to the present day. The U.S. may not live up to the…

The US will tax you after the first $90k, but you can deduct your foreign paid taxes, so this is only a problem if you live in Singapore, Hong Kong, or Switzerland where the income tax rate is lower (housing deductions can help after this point, though). California is crazy in how they handle overseas expats.

[deleted]

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#153

Post by glitchdout »

rooster8 wrote: post #29
Mikeb85 wrote: post #19

It continually amazes me that Americans can perpetuate the myth that their government is a democratic, moral force in the world given everything they have done, and are still doing...

Any system as large and complicated as this one will have failures. Our job is to learn from the past and try to prevent it from happening again in the future.

> Our job is to learn from the past and try to prevent it from happening again in the future.

Doesn't seem to be working with Guantanamo. Or invading other countries.

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#154

Post by Cyther606 »

lavamantis wrote: post #101
njharman wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparisons are a Red Herring. The point is people erroneously "believe" in their government. That it does only the most necessarily evil and then only to bad people. Such beliefs are manifestly dangerous. They result in things such as Drug seizure laws, PATRIOT act, militarization of police, demonizaton of whistle blowers. DON'T trust authority, DON'T give authority powers assuming they will only be used for good, D…

What people '"believe" in their government'? Do a search for "poll americans believing in government". Most polls will show I agree with your last statement completely. The trick is to get people to get knowledgeable (or even care) about history and what is happening in the country. Right about now, it seems to be we're more tending towards "Brave New World" than "1984". If people could just turn off 30 minutes a day…

Fear and ignorance are the problem, not trust. The fear of being tossed in jail. The fear of having your children taken away. The fear of having your assets seized and your reputation tarnished forever. Ignorance of societal trends. Endless warfare, welfare and imperialism fueled by an unprecedented debt bubble. Civil asset forfeiture out of control. The TSA security theatre is encroaching on not just airports but football stadiums and train stations. Posse Comitatus overturned by the NDAA. Dissemination of outright propaganda legalized! The least transparent administration in history. The fucking _IRS_ engaged in outright discrimination against political rivals, which is unquestionably illegal.

But it's OK if you have power. "Sorry, hard drives crashed."

The rich are getting richer, the middle class is disappearing, and people are getting desperate. Western society as a whole is _one_ catastrophic meltdown away from massive civil unrest that will end in bloodshed and revolution.

Does the average American consider these trends when making investment decisions or going about their normal lives? Do they even _care_?

Most people can't afford to openly question the system, because they have too much to lose. They can't afford to be thrown in jail, or have their assets seized, or get put on a list by the NSA. Which is why Bitcoin matters.

Bitcoin enables people to dismantle the massive out of control tyranny without openly admitting or perhaps even _realizing_ their intent. The proof? Plenty of successful, educated people believe Bitcoin is an apolitical fintech innovation that streamlines payments. Success! These people of course have at best a cursory understanding of geopolitics and macroeconomics, which is all the better. Anyone can buy into Bitcoin without leaving their bedroom, and give very plausible reasons for buying in. "Because the price is going up. What's it to you?"

Bitcoin eliminates the State's ability to conduct endless warfare and welfare, because the State can't print BTC. Neither can they seize BTC, which gives _you_ the upper hand. Oh, you want my money? Sorry, can't seem to locate the wallet. Oh, I'm in violation of your moral code and you want to take my bank account? Sure, you can have the $0.00 in my bank account. Think you'll rot away in prison for disobeying tyrants? A huge proportion of inmates have smartphones, which is all you need to access your cash.

Sorry, you can seize my physical assets but you're not touching my fucking fortune. Bitcoin violently flips the power equation. Few appreciate this, but as governments around the world continue to get more and more bankrupt and desperate, having capital outside of their clutches will be a great boon.

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#155

Post by rooster8 »

dang wrote: post #149
rooster8 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that it's policy to change the URLs to the original source, but in this case I feel the EFF article was a better discussion piece.

Yes, it's not always the case that a single URL is better in every respect. We're working on a design for associating multiple URLs with a story. Even with that, though, there still needs to be a primary URL, because the title on the front page has to link somewhere. One thing we were stuck on for a while is how to let users vote on what the primary URL should be, but (fingers crossed) I now think we may have hit on…

Glad to hear about these improvements in development!

The original article was submitted yesterday but got almost no traction, and the inertia of this post seemed to die off around the time it was switched to the NY Times link. Seems like the EFF one really is a better discussion piece. Would you consider changing the URL back so that the majority of the discussion reflects the original source that sparked it in posterity?

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#156

Post by spopejoy »

philwelch wrote: post #55
mathattack wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's stronger than the government would do that. It's that the government did that. This incident of the government trashing one of the world's great civil rights heroes is a mark of shame that all of us Americans have to bear.

King was "one of the world's great civil rights heroes" because he was a subversive figure. It shouldn't be surprising to anyone that subversive figures end up encountering resistance from the Establishment. If you want an example of what the government would do and what the FBI did do, don't look at Martin Luther King. Look at Fred Hampton.

So much of the debate in discussion about this is whether police/FBI "abuse their power", are or are not "evil", if Hoover himself was obsessed, whether King was a saint or a hero or a fraud, was this or that legal, etc.

I'm wondering more about what might be called the "collective subconscious" of the elite and powerful, which knows that black America doesn't forget slavery, Native Americans don't forget conquest, the part that remembers that a government's first and foremost enemy is its own people.

The civil rights movement represented (re-presented) a direct threat to the establishment. It wasn't just the south, there were riots in every major city. Malcolm X was gunned down in NYC. The impoverished black populace, then and now, is a powder keg of rage and misery ready to explode, so targeting leaders was the tactic then. Now we have mass incarceration, with a significant percentage of the black population in jail, or denied full citizenship as felons.

I guess I'm wondering just how much "law enforcement" effort is spent on this high-value problem, instead of on the myriad fantasy "crime-solver" cases that our lovely entertainment establishment narrates in cop show after cop show.

For those who don't wish to Google, Fred Hampton was a Black Panther leader assassinated in his bed by Chicago police acting in concert with the FBI.

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#157

Post by nitrogen »

slg wrote: post #133
nraynaud wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, failures that cost hundreds of thousands lives. We're talking about the most weaponized country in the world, and one of the least shy to use its weapons. We are not talking about a movie maker delivering a boring scene who will try to do better in the next movie. We're talking about toppling foreign governments, invading countries, backing or installing dictatures, assassinating people, droning teenagers, deal…

What country that has been considered a world power hasn't participated in the same level of "evil"? The whole "power corrupts" thing isn't an American problem it is a problem with human nature.

Why does a country need to be a singular "world power"?

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#158

Post by AnimalMuppet »

PeterisP wrote: post #151
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, rules in anarchy have to come from consensus of the people. So the only rules, in practice, are those that the people are willing and able to enforce against those who wish to break them. History shows that, in anarchy situations, those who wish to break the rules are sometimes highly motivated and well armed. Thus anarchy at least means "no rules that apply to a warlord when he really wants them not to". Now,…

There is no such thing consensus of the people in any communities of nontrivial size. In anarchy situations, whoever is capable of filling the power vacuum creates new rules - the "highly motivated and well armed" groups don't break the rules (since if they disagree, there's obviously not a consensus about those rules); they define the rules and others possibly break them.

True enough. But, technically, once someone fills the power vacuum, it's not anarchy any longer.

(But if you're living in it, that "technically" isn't going to comfort you one bit...)

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#159

Post by eyeareque »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #19

It continually amazes me that Americans can perpetuate the myth that their government is a democratic, moral force in the world given everything they have done, and are still doing...

In US schools we are taught from a young age about our "democracy" that we have here. By the time we realize it is all a big lie, we're much older. If only we were able to teach our youngsters what really happens in politics in school.

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#160

Post by crdoconnor »

refurb wrote: post #127
dllthomas wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the parent's point was that democracy is failing to do good, but that America is failing to do democracy.

Tell me what country isn't by your standards? Show me a list of democratic countries and I have no doubt I could dig up some really evil stuff on every single one of them. Don't take my comment as an excuse or an argument that's it's OK. Governments are run by humans which regularly mess up despite their high hopes.

>Show me a list of democratic countries and I have no doubt I could dig up some really evil stuff on every single one of them.

If I were to pick some (e.g. Switzerland/New Zealand), what you'd dig up on the US would still be far, far, far, far worse. There's really no morally relativistic comparison between Switzerland's aiding and abetting money laundering and the US starting two wars in the last 15 years or Obama's drone murder program. None whatsoever.

This reminds me of the invective that got thrown at Ecuador's Raffael Correa after he offered asylum to Snowden.

Lots of people tried to act as if his government arresting protesters who were blocking a road (mentioned in an Amnesty report) made the country hypocritical when it lectured the US on human rights.

Not so much, actually.

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