Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Philae has landed

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 309 posts

Re: Philae has landed

#221

Post by vmarsy »

wozniacki wrote: post #167
bane wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, stunning stunning bit of science and engineering. Everybody involved in this should be beaming with joy. Once again the light of reason continues to chase away humanity's ancestral boogiemen.

I wish we lived in a world where the layman - the Joe Nobody - could grasp how truly momentous this is. Too often the gravity of such endeavors is lost too quickly, from our collective imagination. We need to reanimate the sense of wonder among the non-science inclined people everywhere, to make more of these efforts possible. Live feed of the press conference which should start in a bit: rosetta.esa.int Some cool li…

That 3rd link is very cool. Do you know what does the "comet speed" means on it? Is it its speed relative to the earth ?

It's going at 18km per second, so around 65 000 km/h (40,000 mph).

People manage to land something that left from earth starting at a speed of 0.00km/h and then traveled 6.5 billion km to an object going at that speed, all of this happening 500 million km away. It is amazing!

Re: Philae has landed

#222

Post by phaemon »

ahallock wrote: post #208
phaemon wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is the threat of force to take property from someone against their will. No it's not. It's the threat of force against people who use that market and then refuse to pay the fees they owe. Any service can (and would) do the same via the legal system. I've never paid the US government a penny, because I don't use their market. > We were born into this system and we never agreed to it. You certainly have the option…

You're making a false equivalency between the State and other market actors. You may not be using the US government's services, but you're probably using your own government's. Forcing a service on people (say the War on Drugs) and then demanding payment through taxation is different from competing in the market. Even if you cite paying a fee for using the roads--not too controversial--to gain a monopoly on road-buil…

> You're making a false equivalency between the State and other market actors.

This is a meaningless objection: no two things are exactly the same, but it can be useful to consider how they're similar.

> You may not be using the US government's services, but you're probably using your own government's.

Yes, and then I pay for them.

> Forcing a service on people (say the War on Drugs) and then demanding payment through taxation is different from competing in the market.

No it's not. Many companies take the money I paid for their service and use it in ways I don't like. I get far less say in their use of this money than I do in my country's government.

(My government doesn't have a monopoly on road building - I had to pay for the road up to my house - so I don't know what that refers to)

> You must follow things back to the origin.

Not really. While it may be interesting to find out the origin of certain rules and customs, it makes little difference to the way they are now.

> For a price, and then only to enter another country.

True, nothing in life is free; that's why it's a good general rule that poor people shouldn't pay taxes. But there are countries without governments and there are unclaimed territories around the world - they're just not very nice places to live.

Re: Philae has landed

#223

Post by kartikkumar »

kartikkumar wrote: post #53

Absolutely stunning feat of engineering. My bosses are on the drill team for Philae and were amongst the nervy faces being beamed all over the world. Great example of what European nations can do when politics don't get in the way. ExoMars [1] and Bepi-Colombo [2] are perfect examples of the inverse. Look forward to the first pictures from the surface. I'm at the Division on Planetary Sciences (DPS) meeting [3] in Tu…

Just an update: the harpoons did fail, but the engineers were very concerned about marked fluctuations in the telemetry. There was a suggestion that the lander might actually be tumbling, but those fears seem to have been allayed by the fact that the oscillations seem to have stopped. The engineers will comb through the data over the coming hours, in anticipation of the next downlink, which should be around 4:30am CET (13th Nov). It seems like there might have been bit of a bounce, and the lander might have landed twice! So long as the downlink is available during the next pass, it seems like the lander has weathered the worst of the landing.

Science data has been downlinked, so fingers crossed we'll get some nice images from the surface pretty soon! There's a nice shot of the lander on the way down released already [3].

Sources:

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30031531

[2] Personal communication from ESOC, Darmstadt, Germany

[3] https://blog.flickr.net/en/2014/11/12/rosettas-philae-probe-...

Re: Philae has landed

#224

Post by rybosome »

innguest wrote: post #135
kartikkumar wrote: post #53

Absolutely stunning feat of engineering. My bosses are on the drill team for Philae and were amongst the nervy faces being beamed all over the world. Great example of what European nations can do when politics don't get in the way. ExoMars [1] and Bepi-Colombo [2] are perfect examples of the inverse. Look forward to the first pictures from the surface. I'm at the Division on Planetary Sciences (DPS) meeting [3] in Tu…

How can you people be so dishonest with yourselves and everyone else? Look at the fallacious arguments you put forward: - Nations have a long history of funding exploratory ventures. (appeal to tradition - doing something for a long time does not make it right to keep doing it) - it creates jobs (unseen consequences - it destroys more needed jobs that would have been created or maintained had this money been used by…

I think we simply have different core values. It appears that you believe that the ability for an individual to have total control over their money is a basic right. I believe that an individual has a fundamental responsibility to the society into which they were born; this is vague and nebulous, but a portion of this responsibility includes funding scientific and educational projects if they are so able.

Science has, many times in the past, embarked upon a path to which there was no obvious benefit, yet ultimately came upon a discovery or application which improved the lives of humans immeasurably. Could Halley have had any idea how large the impact would be when he coerced Newton to record calculus and the laws of gravity in a book? What about Michael Faraday's fascination with electricity, generously supported by the Royal Society?

People aren't, as a whole, equipped to understand the long-term consequences of our actions. Predicating funding for something so essential to all of the progress made in the last few centuries on this faulty understanding would cripple our development. A government which attempts to offset the massive social cost of such a missed opportunity with speculative research is doing its duty to its citizens. We don't know what we don't know; evaluating scientific research with your limited cost/benefit analysis fails to take into account the enormous opportunity cost of a lost discovery.

As others have noted, taxation which funds things you don't agree with is a basic fact of modern life, but it has benefited you immensely - complaining about this funding model while you enjoy its output seems disingenuous.

Re: Philae has landed

#225

Post by utoku »

vmarsy wrote: post #221
wozniacki wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we lived in a world where the layman - the Joe Nobody - could grasp how truly momentous this is. Too often the gravity of such endeavors is lost too quickly, from our collective imagination. We need to reanimate the sense of wonder among the non-science inclined people everywhere, to make more of these efforts possible. Live feed of the press conference which should start in a bit: rosetta.esa.int Some cool li…

That 3rd link is very cool. Do you know what does the "comet speed" means on it? Is it its speed relative to the earth ? It's going at 18km per second, so around 65 000 km/h (40,000 mph). People manage to land something that left from earth starting at a speed of 0.00km/h and then traveled 6.5 billion km to an object going at that speed, all of this happening 500 million km away. It is amazing!

Its speed is most likely relative to Sun.

Earth moves at about 30km/s relative to sun. So that's your minimal starting speed.

Re: Philae has landed

#226

Post by corin_ »

character0 wrote: post #136
corin_ wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of a great conversation in The West Wing (one of the best written shows ever made, in my opinion). A senator (ENLOW) has put an anonymous hold on building a supercollider, the white house deputy communications director (SAM) wants to help his old professor (MILLGATE) get the budget approved for it, and this is near the end of the episode: ENLOW I'm a Democrat, Sam. How's a 20 billion dollar astronomy lectu…

A similarly great West Wing clip about exploration re: Mars mission. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHGK96-WixU "The history of man is hung on the timeline of exploration and this is what's next."

Heh, watched that when looking for the scene I pasted, as I couldn't remember which of those "what's the point of this science" episodes was the one with the quote I wanted - what an amazing show. Need to rewatch again soon.

Re: Philae has landed

#227

Post by pessimizer »

icebraining wrote: post #157
pessimizer wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck pushing that opinion amongst elites who are more likely to be the beneficiaries of space program spending than the victims of austerity. Space exploration for it's own sake is a self-perpetuating relic of the cold war.

How is space exploration categorically different from other kinds of scientific exploration?

In any number of ways, just as other types of scientific exploration are different from each other, and some seem to be worth spending billions on, and others are not. Do you have a more specific question?

Re: Philae has landed

#228

Post by mycroft-holmes »

rybosome wrote: post #224
innguest wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you people be so dishonest with yourselves and everyone else? Look at the fallacious arguments you put forward: - Nations have a long history of funding exploratory ventures. (appeal to tradition - doing something for a long time does not make it right to keep doing it) - it creates jobs (unseen consequences - it destroys more needed jobs that would have been created or maintained had this money been used by…

I think we simply have different core values. It appears that you believe that the ability for an individual to have total control over their money is a basic right. I believe that an individual has a fundamental responsibility to the society into which they were born; this is vague and nebulous, but a portion of this responsibility includes funding scientific and educational projects if they are so able. Science has…

> I believe that an individual has a fundamental responsibility to the society into which they were born

Why exactly?

Re: Philae has landed

#229

Post by JoeAltmaier »

mycroft-holmes wrote: post #228
rybosome wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we simply have different core values. It appears that you believe that the ability for an individual to have total control over their money is a basic right. I believe that an individual has a fundamental responsibility to the society into which they were born; this is vague and nebulous, but a portion of this responsibility includes funding scientific and educational projects if they are so able. Science has…

> I believe that an individual has a fundamental responsibility to the society into which they were born Why exactly?

If the OP is like most of us, because its right to give back more than you've received. Just using a tool like society isn't enough; you want to contribute to its maintenance, maybe even improve it while you're there.

Re: Philae has landed

#230

Post by wozniacki »

kartikkumar wrote: post #223
kartikkumar wrote: post #53

Absolutely stunning feat of engineering. My bosses are on the drill team for Philae and were amongst the nervy faces being beamed all over the world. Great example of what European nations can do when politics don't get in the way. ExoMars [1] and Bepi-Colombo [2] are perfect examples of the inverse. Look forward to the first pictures from the surface. I'm at the Division on Planetary Sciences (DPS) meeting [3] in Tu…

Just an update: the harpoons did fail, but the engineers were very concerned about marked fluctuations in the telemetry. There was a suggestion that the lander might actually be tumbling, but those fears seem to have been allayed by the fact that the oscillations seem to have stopped. The engineers will comb through the data over the coming hours, in anticipation of the next downlink, which should be around 4:30am CE…

Here's a brief explanation of NASA's role in the mission for those eager to find out how they assisted

  ALICE , MIRO, and IES will provide information about the 
  dynamics of comet C-G: how it develops its coma and tails,
  and how its chemicals interact with each other, and with 
  radiation and the solar wind.
http://rosetta.jpl.nasa.gov/nasas-role

and a glossary of the various terms used.

http://rosetta.jpl.nasa.gov/rosetta-glossary.

( Only adding because I didn't see it mentioned elsewhere. Not for the sake of partisanship or to take away from ESA's grand accomplishment. )

Post reply on HN