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Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

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Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#491

Post by yohanatan »

lmm wrote: post #271
nathas wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain why you think so?

Most of the selling points on scala-lang.org still apply over C# - type inference, pattern matching, case classes (C# makes these less bad than Java, but the field/property distinction can still bite you), an inheritance model that supports the good parts of multiple inheritance without the problems, covariance/contravariance, for/yield syntax that's generic and user-controlled, higher-kinded types. It takes a while…

> F# has a number of these specific implementations but they're kind of "hard-coded" in the language rather than fully extensible.

That's not true. You can extend the language yourself with "computation expressions" (and that's in fact how the 'async', 'let!' et al keywords are implemented).

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#492

Post by hokkos »

saosebastiao wrote: post #340
jbooth wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You find C# harder than this? trait SeqLike[+A, +Repr] extends Any with IterableLike[A, Repr] with GenSeqLike[A, Repr] with Parallelizable[A, ParSeq[A]] { self => or def :+[B >: A, That](elem: B)(implicit bf: CanBuildFrom[Repr, B, That]): That

You intentionally chose code that is hard to read...I could easily do the same with C#. It isn't representative of the vast majority of the code that I use nor write. That being said, when you understand the nuances of type annotations, that code is quite readable in the mathematical notation sense. It is concise and takes more time per byte to understand, but it tells me enough about the code that I rarely have to r…

It is not representative probably because the IDE hide the ugliness.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#493

Post by moonchrome »

jpgvm wrote: post #327
aerique wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What languages have you got experience with that you feel C# is the best language you have worked with? And what makes it such a good language for you?

Generics, Partial Classes, awesome Reflection API, Lambda syntax, LINQ, C/C++ compatibility, async/await, concurrency primitives, etc. I have worked with prettier languages, for instance I have picked up Haskell recently, I have also worked with faster languages, C was my forte for many years and I have worked with languages in the GSD category like Ruby and Python. C# is appealing not because of some feature that it…

Also it compiles fast and tools are really good.

People keep bringing up Scala, last time I tried Scala (~ year back) the compile times were pretty long and the IDE support was sluggish and I have a decent PC. Nowhere near to C#/VS development experience.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#494

Post by virmundi »

Scuds wrote: post #373
virmundi wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until MS makes VS 20XX Professional cross-platform and free, I don't think they'll get much traction. I gave the a shot when I still used Windows via the Express editions. The fact that I had to jump between 3 editors to do anything and still didn't get NUnit integration is ridiculous. Many languages can use the Eclipse, IntelliJ or Netbeans platform. The JVM provides a true multi-platform target as a first class ide…

From: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/AnnouncingNET2015NETAsOpenSour... "There is a new FREE SKU for Visual Studio for open source developers and students called Visual Studio Community. It supports extensions and lots more all in one download. This is not Express. This is basically Pro."

See... I'm neither. I'm a single developer working on mostly closed source projects. As a result, I don't benefit too much from that. Also, I have a Mac and an Ubuntu laptop. So again, not much love from MS.

Now I admit this is the early days of their open source push. That's fine. But until they make VS Pro free, across the board, I doubt non-MS shops will really pickup the platform. There isn't much of a win without VS. Heck, most MS devs are so VS centric that you'll probably get nothing but confused looks if you did use an alternative IDE and said that during an interview.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#495

Post by ssmoot »

jbooth wrote: post #352
tome wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the choice is between having to write null-checks or having to understand category theory to read my code Me too. Luckily this is a false dichotomy.

Here's a random line from the Scala standard collections library: def :+[B >: A, That](elem: B)(implicit bf: CanBuildFrom[Repr, B, That]): That This is from the standard collections library. In Java, I've got a List.add function. In case it's not clear from the name, 'add', I can click through to the implementation and it's pretty obvious what's happening. In Scala, I've got +, ++, +:, :+, and a bunch of other nonsen…

Pointing to CBF is a complete straw-man.

You're rarely actually going to _see_ that signature (the docs actually simplify it for you), and in practice, it's completely meaningless to 99.9% of Scala you'll ever see.

You might as well consider it pixie-dust.

+ for one, ++ to add a collection, the others are generally going to apply to Cons-like. It takes all of a couple minutes to let these sink in.

Use a mutable.MutableList if that's what you want. Or just use ArrayList.

All this is about as pure FUD as I've ever seen...

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#496

Post by yohanatan »

I see this as a last ditch attempt by Microsoft to stay semi-relevant. Of course this was the great promise of .NET to begin with, but it seems rather late to exercise the option now (some 15 years or so after .NET was created)-- a very desperate move by a dying empire.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#497

Post by teacup50 »

MrRadar wrote: post #383
jbooth wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You find C# harder than this? trait SeqLike[+A, +Repr] extends Any with IterableLike[A, Repr] with GenSeqLike[A, Repr] with Parallelizable[A, ParSeq[A]] { self => or def :+[B >: A, That](elem: B)(implicit bf: CanBuildFrom[Repr, B, That]): That

Thank you! I'm working on a team that inherited some Scala code from contractors that no longer work for us and we've found that (at least their) Scala is almost as hard to read as bad Perl. Compounding this is a severe lack of good online documentation outside of the standard library reference and simple tutorials which don't go into the depths we need to know (like how do you create a Manifest from Java to call int…

> we've found that (at least their) Scala is almost as hard to read as bad Perl. At least with Perl you have decades worth of online discussions and pretty good documentation of the core language.

Programming languages you don't know are harder to read than programming languages you do know.

Unlike "bad perl", you have types that tell you exactly what something does.

> ... and simple tutorials which don't go into the depths we need to know (like how do you create a Manifest from Java to call into Scala code that needs it?

Calling Scala from Java is not beginner level material that winds up in a tutorial, and it's a bad idea to begin with; you're stuck speaking a pidgin Scala using Java-only constructs just to maintain Java interop.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#498

Post by _random_ »

jjoonathan wrote: post #167
_random_ wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope not, this way we will see a bit more of healthy competition in the indie game engine space. This is something Unity desperately needs.

Honest question from an outsider: it looks like Epic and Crytek have finally gotten around to moving in to the "low-end" of the game engine market. What's still unique about unity?

1. A much better language - C# with some integration with the best IDE (Visual Studio).

2. Being first to indie market: community and asset store.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#499

Post by curveship »

general_failure wrote: post #347
curveship wrote: post #321

I started as an open source programmer. Then I got a job as a .NET programmer. Now I'm an open source programmer again. Feels good :)

I don't think you understand what open source programmer means :) You have to actually contribute to opensource projects to become one. Just using them means nothing.

What makes you think I haven't :) I spent several years as a Debian package maintainer, plus the usual mix of patches and bug reports to several projects.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#500

Post by yuhong »

tlb wrote: post #253
jacquesm wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Stacker - Netscape - SCO And many others besides. Companies have reputations just like people do (that's why we call them 'incorporated') and just like you can lose your trust in a person you can lose your trust in a corporation. This is not about Microsoft just doing 'stupid stuff sometimes' it is about institutionalized criminal behavior sanctioned at the highest level of one of the largest software companies in…

I'm curious whether, with the fullness of technological hindsight, you still deplore what they did to Netscape. Microsoft was the first to release a free browser included with the OS. That killed Netscape's business of selling browsers on a CD for $40, and Netscape was understandably upset. It now seems clear that an OS needs a browser included, at least so you can read documentation and download the browser of your…

I remember how Opera was affected by this too.
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