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Philae has landed

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Re: Philae has landed

#181
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not 20 more cents... It's actually less money over time. I feel like this argument is really working against you rather than in your favor. Extreme libertarianism is awesome in theory, but fails hard in reality. Income tax, when used smartly, can be one of the greatest things a nation has at its disposal.

> Income tax, when used smartly, can be one of the greatest things a nation has at its disposal. A nation is just its people. People are already in possession of this money before the income tax takes it from them. I agree that this money can be one of the greatest things that people have at their disposal, which is why I'm arguing we should not let government handle it. Why are you against peacefully convincing peop…

>People are already in possession of this money...I'm arguing we should not let government handle it.

a) That's what elections for. Start a party to abolish taxes and see if any people vote for you

b) HN isn't really the place for political ranting - there are other forums

Re: Philae has landed

#182

Absolutely stunning feat of engineering. My bosses are on the drill team for Philae and were amongst the nervy faces being beamed all over the world. Great example of what European nations can do when politics don't get in the way. ExoMars [1] and Bepi-Colombo [2] are perfect examples of the inverse. Look forward to the first pictures from the surface. I'm at the Division on Planetary Sciences (DPS) meeting [3] in Tu…

How can you people be so dishonest with yourselves and everyone else? Look at the fallacious arguments you put forward: - Nations have a long history of funding exploratory ventures. (appeal to tradition - doing something for a long time does not make it right to keep doing it) - it creates jobs (unseen consequences - it destroys more needed jobs that would have been created or maintained had this money been used by…

It's clear you object to taxation and redistribution, not scientific research. As such, your argument here is inappropriate, since this discussion is about science and technology, not taxation.

I suggestion you take your arguments to an economics and politics blog. In the meantime, unless you are a completely dishonest hypocrite, you will stop using everything that has been funded by the coercive taxation you so incoherently decry. That would include most medicine--including vaccines and anti-biotics--as well as a good deal of dentistry, GPS, cell phones, computers, and indeed all semi-conductor technology, as well as roads, railways, airplanes, radio, sailing ships, and almost everything else.

While almost all technology has a private component in its development, it almost all has a fairly significant component that was funded by coercive taxation. Since you believe for some reason that coercive taxation is a bad thing--despite it being responsible for massive increases in human well-being. It seems a bit odd to be against something that has been, empirically, unarguably, responsible for so much good. It's a bit like being against capitalism, or free trade.

Re: Philae has landed

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health, welfare, lowering taxes, employment.... y'know, things that enrich real peoples lives. Space toys and exploration are fun for those working on them, but will this event transform civilisation? Nope. Did the moon landing really transform civilisation? Nope.

How do you know the moon landing didn't transform civilization? Did you try living in an alternate timeline where it did not happen and find things to be the same? What about all those scientists who learned to build rockets, who would later go on to help NASA launch the first weather satellites? What about the work done that led to the formation of the global positioning system? Are you sure it would have happened i…

I had to create an account just to thank you for this response. I always recommend anyone wondering about whether or not space exploration is worth it to view the following amazing video compilations.

"We Stopped Dreaming - Episode 1": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIZU8cQWXc

"We Stopped Dreaming - Episode 2": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFO2usVjfQc

Re: Philae has landed

#184
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emily Lakdawalla tweets from the control center: Ulamec: signal kept coming and going "but we always got it back." Possibly indicates unstable, or tilted. Ulamec confirms the harpoons did NOT fire. There is much they currently do not know. Ulamec: a central rod was pushed into lander 4 cm by landing. Indicates soft rather than hard surface (rod would've pushed more into lander) Just had a chat with Mark McCaughrean a…

Man, measuring how far a rod moves into the lander to gauge depth/surface tension/type? So simple and smart.

It's a robot prodding his finger in the ground :D

Re: Philae has landed

#185
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not 20 more cents... It's actually less money over time. I feel like this argument is really working against you rather than in your favor. Extreme libertarianism is awesome in theory, but fails hard in reality. Income tax, when used smartly, can be one of the greatest things a nation has at its disposal.

> Income tax, when used smartly, can be one of the greatest things a nation has at its disposal. A nation is just its people. People are already in possession of this money before the income tax takes it from them. I agree that this money can be one of the greatest things that people have at their disposal, which is why I'm arguing we should not let government handle it. Why are you against peacefully convincing peop…

Crowd-funded projects fail all the time. What do you do when your local police or fire department fail to meet their crowd-funding goals? How do you handle those that donate very little or nothing at all but consume large amounts, if not most, of the services/resources? How would an individual possibly have the time to adequately research and figure out what to crowd-fund? How would you stop outside interest groups from manipulating what gets crowd-funded? The list goes on.

Re: Philae has landed

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you people be so dishonest with yourselves and everyone else? Look at the fallacious arguments you put forward: - Nations have a long history of funding exploratory ventures. (appeal to tradition - doing something for a long time does not make it right to keep doing it) - it creates jobs (unseen consequences - it destroys more needed jobs that would have been created or maintained had this money been used by…

Few people agree that taxation is the same as theft. You appear to be someone who does have this view. That is fine but it is not a commonly held belief and generally is subject to derision and down voting. This should not come as a shock to you. A very large percentage of people believe that having a functioning government is necessary and taxation is a necessary component for this. There are no examples of large po…

Taxation might not fit the strict definition of theft (easy when the gov creates its own jargon), but it is the threat of force to take property from someone against their will. I mean, how many of us are giving money directly to the gov by our own volition? I don't know of anyone. We were born into this system and we never agreed to it. Let's at least be honest about that.

> There are no examples of large populations of humans (many millions for the definition of large) living well without government.

That there are no examples means nothing. Would you say if most of the world were enslaved that because there are no examples of a free people, it's not worth while to try? You end violent institutions because they are immoral.

Re: Philae has landed

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it has huge benefits and one could argue that the money that was funneled into NASA during the moon landings gave tax payers much more bang for their buck than all kinds of other research, social programs, bank bailouts, etc. These sorts of human achievement defining missions are really hundreds of thousands of hours of engineering dedicated to solving some of the hardest problems we can dream up. You are way…

So effectively, you want to subsidise scientists working on some arbitrary aim (Space exploration), in the hope they'll invent cool stuff you can spin off... I don't think you need to subsidise science like this. Did we really get "propelled" into new age of technology half a century ago? Did the moon landing really change anything here on earth? Technology would have advanced just fine without it.

would rather governments subsidies science then 95% of the other crap they throw money at.

science benefits us as a whole while most subsidies programs benefit a particular group or interest.

Re: Philae has landed

#188

Absolutely stunning feat of engineering. My bosses are on the drill team for Philae and were amongst the nervy faces being beamed all over the world. Great example of what European nations can do when politics don't get in the way. ExoMars [1] and Bepi-Colombo [2] are perfect examples of the inverse. Look forward to the first pictures from the surface. I'm at the Division on Planetary Sciences (DPS) meeting [3] in Tu…

At the risk of turning political, it's a great example of how our taxes are wasted. Playing with space toys shouldn't be funded with taxpayer money. I'm sure I'll get downvoted to hell for this, but why should my money be funding this? Sorry, but it has no benefit whatsoever. edit: Instead of downvoting a dissenting voice, why not argue your case - why should taxpayers fund space toys? edit2: Well, looks like I'm ban…

> looks like I'm banned from commenting

For anyone who's wondering, we haven't banned this account. What happens is that when karma gets low enough to be in outlier territory, comments get auto-killed. This is a longstanding anti-troll measure.

In the future, we plan to have a "moderated" status for comments, rather than "dead", so that the community will be able to fix cases where the commenter is not a troll or has corrected their ways. In the meantime, if you ever notice something being [dead] unfairly, emailing hn@ycombinator.com is usually enough to correct it. (Edit: but do please allow for the variable latency of our email stack. We will get back to you, but there's no SLA on when.)

Re: Philae has landed

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you people be so dishonest with yourselves and everyone else? Look at the fallacious arguments you put forward: - Nations have a long history of funding exploratory ventures. (appeal to tradition - doing something for a long time does not make it right to keep doing it) - it creates jobs (unseen consequences - it destroys more needed jobs that would have been created or maintained had this money been used by…

I'm unsure who you're quoting or what you're arguing. Some people just don't find value in sustaining. This is why we are no longer hunters and gatherers or simple plot farms anymore. Is this good or bad? That's not really a good question, because it is an is; it's neither good nor bad.

[deleted]

Re: Philae has landed

#190
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(stolen money should not be spent in more or less important things, it should be returned to their rightful owner so they can choose what to do with what they've earned) Just to be clear.. Your issue is not that money from taxes is spent on scientific research and space exploration, but really that you have to pay taxes?

My issue is, whoever wants to accomplish something that takes a lot of money to make happen, should do like ARKYD and make a kickstarter or any other peaceful alternative, that allows for every individual to choose whether they'd like to participate. My issue is that running to the government, just because it already has guns in place pointing to every individual's head in case they don't pay, and saying "we'll steal…

This is a misconception. In totalitarian countries, yes, the government can do whatever it wants and extort money, labor and other favors from the people by sheer force. But in the US, we control the government (we can get into notions like tyranny of the majority or regulatory capture, but for the most part the government is very limited in what it can and can’t do or else the people go on strike). In other words, the US government is the largest union (in the labor sense) in the history of the world. We all pay our dues in the form of taxes and get rather remarkable protections, such as a military industrial complex larger then the next dozen or so countries combined and a level of trade that lets the vast majority of the population veg out on reality TV.

I may personally agree with libertarians that the current system is far from ideal. But where we critically disagree is that a private system would ever come anywhere close to the level of civilization we currently enjoy. If you read the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, almost nowhere do they talk about economics (other than taxation without representation etc). That’s because a wild west style free market is the most basic form of trade above barter. We see it everywhere, from third world villages trading with one another, to banana republics, to the startup community. It doesn’t need a specific mention, just as we don’t need to bother saying the Earth is round or gravity exists.

The free market is the basis of economies, just as evolution is the basis of the laws of our universe.

So trying to place it above things like human rights or progress in things like public health or education is just bizarre. The idea that we’ll stop paying taxes and turn every road into a toll road, charge tuition for public school, or fight the bad guys with our own handguns when they come surging over the border is.. sophomoric. And what really sucks is the more libertarian a stance the population takes, the more we see concentrated wealth and power undermine the public good, as we just witnessed in the midterm election. Why would we elect people to office whose campaign slogan is that government is bad? That’s like hiring an undertaker as your doctor. Yet we see it over and over, to the point where ideology is given equal weight to pragmatism.

So to get to the point of why paying taxes for government space exploration is a good thing: because if we didn’t, we would be paying the entirety of our incomes as debt service to a central private bank that spends the money suppressing us (the end result of global fascism). We lucked out that a slight majority of the founding fathers were more in favor of government by the people (wherever that may lead) and were willing to fight and die for that rather than fall back to the default position of oligarchy that previous governments had used for thousands of years. Yet here we are again, where wealth inequality from free market policies has reached such a degree that the scales might tip back to a government that only serves the financial elite.

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