Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
381–390 of 937 posts
Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
#382Earlier quoted context omitted.
- Stacker - Netscape - SCO And many others besides. Companies have reputations just like people do (that's why we call them 'incorporated') and just like you can lose your trust in a person you can lose your trust in a corporation. This is not about Microsoft just doing 'stupid stuff sometimes' it is about institutionalized criminal behavior sanctioned at the highest level of one of the largest software companies in…
I'm curious whether, with the fullness of technological hindsight, you still deplore what they did to Netscape. Microsoft was the first to release a free browser included with the OS. That killed Netscape's business of selling browsers on a CD for $40, and Netscape was understandably upset. It now seems clear that an OS needs a browser included, at least so you can read documentation and download the browser of your…
Yes, it's become clear that a web browser should be bundled in the OS, and even as I said at the time, when I was a teenager, you need a shitty web browser to download a good one, or at least it's a big help.
What Microsoft did, and is admitted in a book, is to leverage the Windows monopoly to strengthen the Office monopoly, which had impact on every educational institution, law firm, local, state, and national legislature and locked up a ton of public domain work in a file format that only an expensive program that doesn't run on all computers can read.
Eventually that was steamrolled over by Congress demanding an open format, though interoperability is still pretty piss poor.
Of course, all of the DOJ's resources to show Microsoft who's boss were wasted on a silly fight over whether you can bundle a web browser. If you read Ben Horowitz' "The hard thing about hard things", it's not even the browser that sunk Netscape, it's IIS - their bread and butter was the server.
In light of the fact that our phones and televisions now ship with web browsers, and likely most of us are not paying for web servers, it seems clear that Netscape's business model was not going to last.
So yeah, fuck Microsoft.
Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
#383Earlier quoted context omitted.
Funny, I find c# much harder to read. Its almost as if it is easy to understand code for languages you know well, and harder to understand code for languages you don't.
You find C# harder than this? trait SeqLike[+A, +Repr] extends Any with IterableLike[A, Repr] with GenSeqLike[A, Repr] with Parallelizable[A, ParSeq[A]] { self => or def :+[B >: A, That](elem: B)(implicit bf: CanBuildFrom[Repr, B, That]): That
Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
#384Thankyou Microsoft.
Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
#385Earlier quoted context omitted.
- Stacker - Netscape - SCO And many others besides. Companies have reputations just like people do (that's why we call them 'incorporated') and just like you can lose your trust in a person you can lose your trust in a corporation. This is not about Microsoft just doing 'stupid stuff sometimes' it is about institutionalized criminal behavior sanctioned at the highest level of one of the largest software companies in…
I'm curious whether, with the fullness of technological hindsight, you still deplore what they did to Netscape. Microsoft was the first to release a free browser included with the OS. That killed Netscape's business of selling browsers on a CD for $40, and Netscape was understandably upset. It now seems clear that an OS needs a browser included, at least so you can read documentation and download the browser of your…
As the government wrote in a trial brief:
"In short, Microsoft feared and sought to impede the development of network effects that cross-platform technology like Netscape Navigator and Java might enjoy and use to challenge Microsoft's monopoly. Another internal Microsoft document indicates that the plan was not simply to blunt Java/browser cross-platform momentum, but to destroy the cross-platform threat entirely, with the 'Strategic Objective' described as to 'Kill cross-platform Java by grow[ing] the polluted Java market.'"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Java_Virtual_Machine#...
This is the strategy an MS exec described as "embrace, extend, extinguish":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish
The "embrace" part is particularly gross. IIRC, the court found that Microsoft deliberately misled developers to make them think that apps developed with MS-JVM would work cross-platform, when really it was designed to prevent that. They lied to developers to trick us into wasting our time, to destroy cross-platform technologies that threatened their monopoly.
Want to make it practical? There are thousands of us here who have each spent hundreds of hours struggling with IE compatibility when we could have been building cool stuff. We're building the future as fast as we can, but you and I and Bill Gates will all get to see less of that future before we die, because Microsoft set out to break the web and it took a whole lot of time to fix it.
Of course that was going on 20 years ago now. Microsoft probably has interns now who were born after IE came out. I realized recently that I'm not mad about this stuff anymore. But it's not a history we should forget or repeat.
Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
#386Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seeing comments like this “I'll never switch back to MS for what they've done in the past” always reminds me of this post from Hanselman http://www.hanselman.com/blog/MicrosoftKilledMyPappy.aspx
- Stacker - Netscape - SCO And many others besides. Companies have reputations just like people do (that's why we call them 'incorporated') and just like you can lose your trust in a person you can lose your trust in a corporation. This is not about Microsoft just doing 'stupid stuff sometimes' it is about institutionalized criminal behavior sanctioned at the highest level of one of the largest software companies in…
Welcome to American corporate culture :)
You have to keep in mind that Microsoft had a monopoly for a very long time. While their actions may, in your world view, be "criminal", as a corporation Microsoft was acting completely rationally. As a public corporation, they have an obligation to maximize value for shareholders. You also have to keep in mind the historical context: back then, there was no such thing as "social responsibility".
Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
#387Can anyone clarify for me, does this include WPF? I remember I wanted to run a few apps off github on linux and they used WPF, which mono doesn't support. Otherwise mono seemed to run pretty much everything i threw at it. Can someone with .NET experience clarify for me what this will enable that mono doesn't (yet)? In other words, if .net will continue to be riddled with windows only API's I'm not really interested.…
Server side makes more sense. WPF is an UI framework, even it includes WPF, the user experience will be bad just because it looks so differently than native apps.
WPF is part of a trend I believe to see, going away from strictly consistent UI styles:
QT used to emphasize simple widgets that you could theme consistently. With QT quick the emphasis is on individual per-app styles themed with css (but you also have the old widgets). Very similar situation in GTK3, where cross-desktop themeing is deemphasized (they removed support for changing theme colors, hid the theme changer in gnome-tweak-tools, and some developers advocated removing themeing altogether). At the same time, individual GNOME3 apps experiment much more with nonstandard widgets and CSS than before.
Windows 8 "Metro" apps are similar. With the simple, clean design language, I thought they would be really design-by-intent. A la "I want a list here, and I want to link it to a detail view. My elements have these properties. Build me a CRUD interface and spice it up with these colors." and it would generate a Metro UI. But instead, after playing with Visual Studio, I find it's almost the opposite: "Place a rectangle at these coordinates, a label there. When the user clicks here, run that code." There is very little in the development experience to encourage consistent UIs, and you have to look up stuff like recommended font sizes manually on MSDN. Naturally, it makes it impossible to upgrade the UI style over all apps in a later Windows version.
Same in Android. Try to make an app look up-to-date, even on currently unreleased OS versions is impossible. UI code is way to low-level, considering a huge fraction of apps are just fancy list-views.
I could go on for a while. The point is that (unfortunately) UI consistency is not a priority nowadays (maybe except on OSX), at least when it comes to tooling (the efforts of many developers to still make consistent UX/UI are very laudable). And compared with the competitors, you could write at least as nice apps in WPF.
Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
#388Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
#389Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not why we call them incorporated. 'Body' or 'corpus' are synonyms for 'organization'. They are called corporations because the embody some coordinated effort, not because someone realized "hey, this organization seems to have a personality. I'll call it a corporation."
No, 'incorporated' is another way of saying something is a legal entity independent of those that create it. But since corporations tend to assume a lot of the traits of the people that run them and are given significant subsets of the rights normally afforded to real-life human beings the line between corporate identities and persons can blur to the point where we are allowed to ascribe (some) personal traits to cor…
Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
#390Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That was 20 years ago. Fucking get over it. Microsoft sure has. Some stuff from 2014, maybe that will help you to see that Microsoft has definitely not 'gotten over it': https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8596869 And that's just a very limited list.
>"a bribery scandal involving distributors selling Microsoft products" I'm not sure Best Buy reflects that poorly on Microsoft. >"They reportedly have raised over $5.5 billion from many large companies including Microsoft, Intel, Sony, Nokia, Apple, Google, Yahoo, American Express, Adobe, SAP, Nvidia, and eBay, plus investment firms such as Stanford, Hewlett Foundation, Mayo Clinic, and Charles River Ventures." Again…
Best buy didn't enter into it, you probably did not fully read the link. This was about Romania, not about the USA.
> Again, doesn't reflect that poorly on Microsoft.
It does, because IV is best described as a patent troll in a nice suit.
> Is a software sales company supposed to not sell software? That's what they do. How does that reflect poorly on them?
Because they struck a deal to relocate their headquarters to Munich if and only if the government would ditch linux.
I don't have any religion, I'm just against companies that engage in illegal acts. That 'some of us don't subscribe to that line of thinking' is a pity, I'm not shutting anybody down, nor am I controlling the conversation. In fact, I'm happy that MS open sourced this code.